[members-discuss] RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Open House: Recording and Slides Available

I dont try to teach anybody anything. You asked I reply. My only point 
here is to try find long term solution to RIPE charging fees. Because the way 
we move now will have bad impacts to RIPE and all members in the future...

What I offer is someone from all RIPE NCC staff (150,200 or what their 
number is) to do calculations and write here what will be the RIPE budget 
if we have such charging scheme:

750 EURO fee LIR's sum (legacy IRR + sponsoring) allocated resources is up 
to:
1 x /19 IPV4 BLOCK
1 x /28 IPV6 BLOCK
16 ASN
If LIR's resources pass one or more of the above parameters +750 EURO up 
to:
2 x /19 IPV4 BLOCK
2 x /28 IPV6 BLOCK
32 ASN
If pass one or more of the above parameters +750 EURO and so on...

Flat ladder charging scheme very similar to other RIRs.

/19 IPV4 BLOCK contain 16 x /24
/28 IPV6 BLOCK contain 16 x /32
Prety equal to can be shared among 16 ASN. Also dont rely only on 
"precious" IPV4, quite sustainable for the future, as well as distributes 
resources and the monetary burden of contributions fairly.




Ivaylo Josifov
VarnaIX / Varteh LTD
+359 52 969393
Varna, Bulgaria


On Thu, 11 Apr 2024, sdy at a-n-t.ru wrote:

> Ok.
> So you have your business, your business - your problems.
> Please, do not try teach other people how to work if they do not ask you.
> I do not understand your 5 cents for our business and how we use IPv6 and
> IPv4.
>
> If you do not need some resources - it's good for you now.
> Time run - some will need changing.
>
> If you have some another looks on IPv4 problem - make your own position!
>
> BUT PLEASE? DO NOT TOLD US HOW TO DO THE BUSINESS!
> All of us are not a babies.
>
>>
>>> How much IPv4 have you companies?
>>
>> My LIR have a single /22, and a single /24 for the IXP we drive, and
>> I dont need more IPV4 because we already deployed dual stack IPV4/IPV6...
>>
>>
>>> Use or not IPv6 - is the choice! Everyone have different businesses.  If
>>> we need we will use it!!
>>
>> Wrong IPV6 = connectivity. In the world there are 8B people and at least
>> 8B servers. Can you fit them in 32bit address space ? - No ! Can you fit
>> them in 128bit address space ? - 18446744073709551617 TIMES ! There is
>> nothing you can do with IPV4 and you can not with IPV6 - it is matter of
>> knowedge !
>>
>>
>>> Many LIR's need IPv4, but now some 'oldmans' want to make buisness on
>>> free
>>> resources. It is not clear business for me. Sorry, it is abnormal then
>>> something that giving for free is resale for 10 euros per year.
>>
>> I am also network administrator of a access ISPs some of them have more
>> than 6000 end users and fit in a single /22 (plus all the internal
>> infrastructure) nobody cares for the IPV4, NAT IPV4 1:16 and give IPV6.
>> If an end users want IPV4 +1 EURO (100 rublas) per month simple. Honestly
>> I dont care about the IPV4 resources it is a part of the past for me, all
>> plans of the networks are done on IPV6, IPV4 is just something we need to
>> support for some more time. If someone have 12k - 15k to "buy" /24 IPV4
>> or 100 Euro/mnth to rent such for me he have serious knowedge problems :)
>> And big guilty for that have RIPE's flat charging scheme, it just work
>> for the speculators. And no You dont need IPV4 to grow you need IPV6 to
>> step in the future (if you plan to work that bussiness in long term)
>>
>>
>>> Unfortunately I can see another way - divide Internet by paths and
>>> redistribute resources again in this paths by new NCC or goverments -
>>> would you like it?
>>
>> Government, politics, brokers, speculators and all "parasites" must stay
>> away (or be pushed away) from the Internet ecosystem (my own point of
>> view). Internet is for connecting people not to divide them. Internet
>> resources are tight part of the network, _MUST_ be on use to the companies
>> who work for the Internet and have to be available to everyone on the
>> planet, also their uniquiness must be guaranteed !
>>
>>
>>
>> Ivaylo Josifov
>> VarnaIX / Varteh LTD
>> +359 52 969393
>> Varna, Bulgaria
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 11 Apr 2024, sdy at a-n-t.ru wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Ivaylo, sorry but if you want count money in my pockets, let's count
>>> your
>>> too!
>>> How much IPv4 have you companies?
>>>
>>> Use or not IPv6 - is the choice! Everyone have different businesses.  If
>>> we need we will use it!!
>>>
>>> Many companies now need more IPv4 for they work or grow! It is not right
>>> that some limit group of people was taken something and speculate it,
>>> when
>>> it is needed for other people.
>>>
>>> Many LIR's need IPv4, but now some 'oldmans' want to make buisness on
>>> free
>>> resources. It is not clear business for me. Sorry, it is abnormal then
>>> something that giving for free is resale for 10 euros per year.
>>>
>>> If RIPE and NCC will not decide problem with IPv4 and AS it will make
>>> much
>>> more problems for all.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately I can see another way - divide Internet by paths and
>>> redistribute resources again in this paths by new NCC or goverments -
>>> would you like it?
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, it is already was discussed.
>>>>> It's wrong model with categories. ...
>>>>
>>>> So all other RIRs are wrong ? Only RIPE is on the right road ?
>>>>
>>>> From what I see "Alpha Net Telecom" still do not have IPV6 (why?) and
>>> your company holds sumary less of 2 x /19 IPV4 blocks so ...
>>>>
>>>> I wrote about my calculation (based on IANA resources delegated to
>>>> RIPE)
>>> for charging scheme a week ago: Your company will pay 1500 euro / year
>>> and RIPE bugdet will be up to 64M - sustainable for the next 10 years.
>>> So why you lobbing for something worse for you ?
>>>>
>>>> Let me tell you what will happen if we keep going with the flat fee for
>>> all... Merging Merging Merging in the end will left 2k-3k members
>>> (levels around 2005). You will be pay then 21 000 Euro and your
>>> resources will be still same. When 10 other LIRs are merged each of them
>>> will pay 2k again and will have same resources. how it sounds to you ?
>>> What you will say then in that future moment ? Do you think you can make
>>> a change in RIPE charging scheme _THEN_ (when all will waht to keep
>>> going with the flat
>>>> model) ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ivaylo Josifov
>>>> VarnaIX / Varteh LTD
>>>> +359 52 969393
>>>> Varna, Bulgaria
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 11 Apr 2024, sdy at a-n-t.ru wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, it is already was discussed.
>>>>> It's wrong model with categories. It do not anything to decide
>>> resources deficits.
>>>>> It is strongly must be payment for each assigned deficit resource,
>>>>> like
>>> was the  land tax in England. Only this way making all NCC equal in
>>> their
>>>>> rights, and will return unused resources to NCC.
>>>>>
>>>>> WE need to vote at first MUST we pay for each deficit resource or not.
>>>>> And
>>>>> it NEED to take in vote all NCC members!
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> i dont understand, why RIPE try to punish the small providers, as a
>>> non-profit organisation. They are trying to punish the small providers
>>> and
>>>>>> strengthen or favor big proividers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are thousends of solution advices from members as i see. Many
>>>>>> good
>>>>>> offers but also examples from other RIRs. Why still try to monopolize
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> sector by doing this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For example:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IPv4 = IPv4 Allocations /24
>>>>>>
>>>>>> MF = Yearly Fee
>>>>>>
>>>>>> AF = Allocation Fee
>>>>>>
>>>>>> PR = Percentage of the Yearly Fee to the Allocation Fee
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IPv4                      MF                         AF
>>>>>>       PR
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 16384                  1.875                    1.228.800
>>>>>> %0,15
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4096                     1.875                    307.200
>>>>>> %0,6
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 256                        1.875                    19.200
>>>>>> %9,7
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 16                          1.875                    1.200
>>>>>>   %156
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1                             1.875                    75
>>>>>>         %2500
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All the adviced models are very similar and as you can see, for the
>>> smaller providers it is so dependant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And another point is, that the adviced schemes are almost identical.
>>>>>> What
>>>>>> should be chosen, i am not sure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If needed, surely can be found many solution variations, and i am
>>>>>> sure
>>> better than adviced schemes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Instead of monopolizing the big providers, by advicing consolidation,
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> should provide some relif for small providers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And in all the adviced schemes the Yaerly Fee for every LIR account
>>>>>> is
>>> too
>>>>>> much for small providers?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en / Best Regards
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Murat TERZIOGLU
>>>>>> PREBITS
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bochumer Str. 20
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 44866 Bochum
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Deutschland
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Telefon: 0234/58825994
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Telefax: 0234/58825995
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  <http://www.prebits.de/> www.prebits.de
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  <mailto:info at prebits.de> info at prebits.de
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> USt-ID: DE315418902
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Von: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net> Im Auftrag
>>>>>> von
>>> Martin Millnert via members-discuss
>>>>>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 11. April 2024 14:43
>>>>>> An: Fergal Cunningham <fergalc at ripe.net>
>>>>>> Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net
>>>>>> Betreff: Re: [members-discuss] RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Open
>>>>>> House:
>>>>>> Recording and Slides Available
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Fergal,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don?t envy the challenge of the board with this feedback, but I
>>>>>> suspect
>>>>>> it is wise to listen to it else the platform for new candidates to
>>>>>> the
>>> board the next 5 years seems to be pretty straightforward and likely
>>> to be
>>>>>> elected: Cost reductions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As a side, doesn?t the articles of association allow for membership
>>> organized items for AGM to vote on as well?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Martin Millnert
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10 Apr 2024, at 15:38, Fergal Cunningham <fergalc at ripe.net
>>>>>> <mailto:fergalc at ripe.net> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Martin,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Executive Board decided on these draft options at its meeting on
>>>>>> 25th
>>>>>> of March. So now the Board and management will follow the feedback on
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> draft proposal on the list. They will decide by 24 April if these
>>>>>> will be
>>>>>> the final options to vote on at the GM or if they want to make
>>> amendments.
>>>>>> So essentially the decision on what gets voted on at the GM is made
>>>>>> by
>>> the
>>>>>> Board. You can see the minutes from that meeting here (section 3.3 on
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> Charging Scheme):
>>>>>> https://www.ripe.net/about-us/executive-board/minutes/2024/174th-executive-board-meeting-minutes/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And it's worth mentioning that this list is for members to discuss
>>>>>> the
>>> issues while we and the board will listen. But we will of course reply
>>> and
>>>>>> provide information to address the points raised if at all possible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>> Fergal
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 2:41?PM <sdy at a-n-t.ru <mailto:sdy at a-n-t.ru> >
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I want to ask add to vote variant D.
>>>>>> All as was before+5% inflation and 10E per 1024 addresses IPv4 per
>>> year (counting at 31 december). Can we try to vote it too?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 22 Mar 2024, at 15:27, Fergal Cunningham <fergalc at ripe.net
>>> <mailto:fergalc at ripe.net> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This Wednesday, 20 March, we held an Open House with members about
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025. There was a presentation from RIPE
>>> NCC staff, including our CFO and Managing Director, as well as
>>> statements from both the Executive Board Chair and Treasurer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There was a productive discussion about the financial landscape we
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> operating in and thoughts about how best to fund the RIPE NCC. The
>>> Executive Board will meet on Monday and discuss what we heard this
>>> week,
>>>>>>>> and they will decide on a draft charging proposal to put forward to
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> members in April.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The session recording and the slides from the presentation are
>>> available
>>>>>>>> at:
>>>>>>>> https://www.ripe.net/membership/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-charging-scheme-2025/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At the bottom of this mail you can find the timestamps for the
>>>>>>>> sections
>>>>>>>> of the presentation and Q&A.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We greatly appreciate the input we received from members this week
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> the constructive nature of the discussions. We encourage you all to
>>> continue to discuss the charging scheme on this list.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Fergal Cunningham
>>>>>>>> Head of Membership Engagement
>>>>>>>> RIPE NCC
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Open House Timestamps
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 01:30 Welcome and Agenda, Fergal Cunningham
>>>>>>>> 04:30 Development and History of the Charging Scheme, Fergal
>>>>>>>> Cunningham
>>>>>>>> 12:45 Consolidation and Inflation, Simon Jan Haytink
>>>>>>>> 19:10 The Work We Need to Fund, Simon Jan Haytink
>>>>>>>> 22:30 Summary and Key Questions, Hans Petter Holen
>>>>>>>> 27:20 Statement from Executive Board Chair, Ond?ej Filip
>>>>>>>> 30:30 Statement from Executive Board Treasurer, Raymond Jetten
>>>>>>>> 32:45
>>> Q&A with RIPE NCC Members
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Fergal,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What is the formal process of deciding what options the AGM get to
>>>>>>> vote
>>>>>>> at, during the upcoming AGM?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would like to suggest a Consumer Price Index based re-indexing of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> costs, using standard European CPI numbers from Eurostat.  We all
>>> have to
>>>>>>> deal with increases in costs due to inflation, and it?s fair that
>>> RIPE does not have to fight inflation alone.  Yearly inflation as
>>> released in
>>>>>>> March 2024 was at 2.4% ?
>>>>>>> https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-euro-indicators/w/2-03042024-ap
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>> Martin_______________________________________________
>>>>>>> members-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>> members-discuss at ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net>
>>>>>>> https://mailman.ripe.net/
>>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>>>>>>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/sdy%40a-n-t.ru
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----------------------------
>>>>>> ? ????????? ???????? ???????
>>>>>> ??? "????? ??? ???????"
>>>>>> +7(498)785-8-000 ???.
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----------------------------
>>>>> ? ????????? ???????? ???????
>>>>> ??? "????? ??? ???????"
>>>>> +7(498)785-8-000 ???.
>>>>> +7(495)940-92-11 ???.
>>>>> +7(925)518-10-69 ???.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
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>>> -----------------------------
>>> ? ????????? ???????? ???????
>>> ??? "????? ??? ???????"
>>> +7(498)785-8-000 ???.
>>> +7(495)940-92-11 ???.
>>> +7(925)518-10-69 ???.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----------------------------
>>> ? ????????? ???????? ???????
>>> ??? "????? ??? ???????"
>>> +7(498)785-8-000 ???.
>>> +7(495)940-92-11 ???.
>>> +7(925)518-10-69 ???.
>>>
>>>
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>
>
> -----------------------------
> ? ????????? ???????? ???????
> ??? "????? ??? ???????"
> +7(498)785-8-000 ???.
> +7(495)940-92-11 ???.
> +7(925)518-10-69 ???.
>