[members-discuss] RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Open House: Recording and Slides Available

So, looks, you only like to round resources to /19 and 16 ASN.
What difference if it will be payment not for /19, and for /25 or 1?

Nobody will count it by hand, Excel (or other sof will calc it).

But in you case, if I have unused /22 in my /19 - it is absolutely not
interesting to return it!

>
> I dont try to teach anybody anything. You asked I reply. My only point
> here is to try find long term solution to RIPE charging fees. Because the
> way
> we move now will have bad impacts to RIPE and all members in the future...
>
> What I offer is someone from all RIPE NCC staff (150,200 or what their
> number is) to do calculations and write here what will be the RIPE budget
> if we have such charging scheme:
>
> 750 EURO fee LIR's sum (legacy IRR + sponsoring) allocated resources is up
> to:
> 1 x /19 IPV4 BLOCK
> 1 x /28 IPV6 BLOCK
> 16 ASN
> If LIR's resources pass one or more of the above parameters +750 EURO up
> to:
> 2 x /19 IPV4 BLOCK
> 2 x /28 IPV6 BLOCK
> 32 ASN
> If pass one or more of the above parameters +750 EURO and so on...
>
> Flat ladder charging scheme very similar to other RIRs.
>
> /19 IPV4 BLOCK contain 16 x /24
> /28 IPV6 BLOCK contain 16 x /32
> Prety equal to can be shared among 16 ASN. Also dont rely only on
> "precious" IPV4, quite sustainable for the future, as well as distributes
> resources and the monetary burden of contributions fairly.
>
>
>
>
> Ivaylo Josifov
> VarnaIX / Varteh LTD
> +359 52 969393
> Varna, Bulgaria
>
>
> On Thu, 11 Apr 2024, sdy at a-n-t.ru wrote:
>
>> Ok.
>> So you have your business, your business - your problems.
>> Please, do not try teach other people how to work if they do not ask
>> you.
>> I do not understand your 5 cents for our business and how we use IPv6
>> and
>> IPv4.
>>
>> If you do not need some resources - it's good for you now.
>> Time run - some will need changing.
>>
>> If you have some another looks on IPv4 problem - make your own position!
>>
>> BUT PLEASE? DO NOT TOLD US HOW TO DO THE BUSINESS!
>> All of us are not a babies.
>>
>>>
>>>> How much IPv4 have you companies?
>>>
>>> My LIR have a single /22, and a single /24 for the IXP we drive, and
>>> I dont need more IPV4 because we already deployed dual stack
>>> IPV4/IPV6...
>>>
>>>
>>>> Use or not IPv6 - is the choice! Everyone have different businesses.
>>>> If
>>>> we need we will use it!!
>>>
>>> Wrong IPV6 = connectivity. In the world there are 8B people and at
>>> least
>>> 8B servers. Can you fit them in 32bit address space ? - No ! Can you
>>> fit
>>> them in 128bit address space ? - 18446744073709551617 TIMES ! There is
>>> nothing you can do with IPV4 and you can not with IPV6 - it is matter
>>> of
>>> knowedge !
>>>
>>>
>>>> Many LIR's need IPv4, but now some 'oldmans' want to make buisness on
>>>> free
>>>> resources. It is not clear business for me. Sorry, it is abnormal then
>>>> something that giving for free is resale for 10 euros per year.
>>>
>>> I am also network administrator of a access ISPs some of them have more
>>> than 6000 end users and fit in a single /22 (plus all the internal
>>> infrastructure) nobody cares for the IPV4, NAT IPV4 1:16 and give IPV6.
>>> If an end users want IPV4 +1 EURO (100 rublas) per month simple.
>>> Honestly
>>> I dont care about the IPV4 resources it is a part of the past for me,
>>> all
>>> plans of the networks are done on IPV6, IPV4 is just something we need
>>> to
>>> support for some more time. If someone have 12k - 15k to "buy" /24 IPV4
>>> or 100 Euro/mnth to rent such for me he have serious knowedge problems
>>> :)
>>> And big guilty for that have RIPE's flat charging scheme, it just work
>>> for the speculators. And no You dont need IPV4 to grow you need IPV6 to
>>> step in the future (if you plan to work that bussiness in long term)
>>>
>>>
>>>> Unfortunately I can see another way - divide Internet by paths and
>>>> redistribute resources again in this paths by new NCC or goverments -
>>>> would you like it?
>>>
>>> Government, politics, brokers, speculators and all "parasites" must
>>> stay
>>> away (or be pushed away) from the Internet ecosystem (my own point of
>>> view). Internet is for connecting people not to divide them. Internet
>>> resources are tight part of the network, _MUST_ be on use to the
>>> companies
>>> who work for the Internet and have to be available to everyone on the
>>> planet, also their uniquiness must be guaranteed !
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ivaylo Josifov
>>> VarnaIX / Varteh LTD
>>> +359 52 969393
>>> Varna, Bulgaria
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, 11 Apr 2024, sdy at a-n-t.ru wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ivaylo, sorry but if you want count money in my pockets, let's count
>>>> your
>>>> too!
>>>> How much IPv4 have you companies?
>>>>
>>>> Use or not IPv6 - is the choice! Everyone have different businesses.
>>>> If
>>>> we need we will use it!!
>>>>
>>>> Many companies now need more IPv4 for they work or grow! It is not
>>>> right
>>>> that some limit group of people was taken something and speculate it,
>>>> when
>>>> it is needed for other people.
>>>>
>>>> Many LIR's need IPv4, but now some 'oldmans' want to make buisness on
>>>> free
>>>> resources. It is not clear business for me. Sorry, it is abnormal then
>>>> something that giving for free is resale for 10 euros per year.
>>>>
>>>> If RIPE and NCC will not decide problem with IPv4 and AS it will make
>>>> much
>>>> more problems for all.
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately I can see another way - divide Internet by paths and
>>>> redistribute resources again in this paths by new NCC or goverments -
>>>> would you like it?
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry, it is already was discussed.
>>>>>> It's wrong model with categories. ...
>>>>>
>>>>> So all other RIRs are wrong ? Only RIPE is on the right road ?
>>>>>
>>>>> From what I see "Alpha Net Telecom" still do not have IPV6 (why?) and
>>>> your company holds sumary less of 2 x /19 IPV4 blocks so ...
>>>>>
>>>>> I wrote about my calculation (based on IANA resources delegated to
>>>>> RIPE)
>>>> for charging scheme a week ago: Your company will pay 1500 euro / year
>>>> and RIPE bugdet will be up to 64M - sustainable for the next 10 years.
>>>> So why you lobbing for something worse for you ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Let me tell you what will happen if we keep going with the flat fee
>>>>> for
>>>> all... Merging Merging Merging in the end will left 2k-3k members
>>>> (levels around 2005). You will be pay then 21 000 Euro and your
>>>> resources will be still same. When 10 other LIRs are merged each of
>>>> them
>>>> will pay 2k again and will have same resources. how it sounds to you ?
>>>> What you will say then in that future moment ? Do you think you can
>>>> make
>>>> a change in RIPE charging scheme _THEN_ (when all will waht to keep
>>>> going with the flat
>>>>> model) ?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ivaylo Josifov
>>>>> VarnaIX / Varteh LTD
>>>>> +359 52 969393
>>>>> Varna, Bulgaria
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 11 Apr 2024, sdy at a-n-t.ru wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry, it is already was discussed.
>>>>>> It's wrong model with categories. It do not anything to decide
>>>> resources deficits.
>>>>>> It is strongly must be payment for each assigned deficit resource,
>>>>>> like
>>>> was the  land tax in England. Only this way making all NCC equal in
>>>> their
>>>>>> rights, and will return unused resources to NCC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WE need to vote at first MUST we pay for each deficit resource or
>>>>>> not.
>>>>>> And
>>>>>> it NEED to take in vote all NCC members!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> i dont understand, why RIPE try to punish the small providers, as a
>>>> non-profit organisation. They are trying to punish the small providers
>>>> and
>>>>>>> strengthen or favor big proividers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are thousends of solution advices from members as i see. Many
>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>> offers but also examples from other RIRs. Why still try to
>>>>>>> monopolize
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> sector by doing this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For example:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IPv4 = IPv4 Allocations /24
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> MF = Yearly Fee
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> AF = Allocation Fee
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> PR = Percentage of the Yearly Fee to the Allocation Fee
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IPv4                      MF                         AF
>>>>>>>       PR
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 16384                  1.875                    1.228.800
>>>>>>> %0,15
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 4096                     1.875                    307.200
>>>>>>> %0,6
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 256                        1.875                    19.200
>>>>>>> %9,7
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 16                          1.875                    1.200
>>>>>>>   %156
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1                             1.875                    75
>>>>>>>         %2500
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All the adviced models are very similar and as you can see, for the
>>>> smaller providers it is so dependant.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And another point is, that the adviced schemes are almost
>>>>>>> identical.
>>>>>>> What
>>>>>>> should be chosen, i am not sure.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If needed, surely can be found many solution variations, and i am
>>>>>>> sure
>>>> better than adviced schemes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Instead of monopolizing the big providers, by advicing
>>>>>>> consolidation,
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> should provide some relif for small providers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And in all the adviced schemes the Yaerly Fee for every LIR account
>>>>>>> is
>>>> too
>>>>>>> much for small providers?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en / Best Regards
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Murat TERZIOGLU
>>>>>>> PREBITS
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bochumer Str. 20
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 44866 Bochum
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Deutschland
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Telefon: 0234/58825994
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Telefax: 0234/58825995
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  <http://www.prebits.de/> www.prebits.de
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  <mailto:info at prebits.de> info at prebits.de
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> USt-ID: DE315418902
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Von: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net> Im Auftrag
>>>>>>> von
>>>> Martin Millnert via members-discuss
>>>>>>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 11. April 2024 14:43
>>>>>>> An: Fergal Cunningham <fergalc at ripe.net>
>>>>>>> Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net
>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: [members-discuss] RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Open
>>>>>>> House:
>>>>>>> Recording and Slides Available
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Fergal,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don?t envy the challenge of the board with this feedback, but I
>>>>>>> suspect
>>>>>>> it is wise to listen to it else the platform for new candidates to
>>>>>>> the
>>>> board the next 5 years seems to be pretty straightforward and likely
>>>> to be
>>>>>>> elected: Cost reductions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As a side, doesn?t the articles of association allow for membership
>>>> organized items for AGM to vote on as well?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Martin Millnert
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10 Apr 2024, at 15:38, Fergal Cunningham <fergalc at ripe.net
>>>>>>> <mailto:fergalc at ripe.net> > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Martin,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Executive Board decided on these draft options at its meeting
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> 25th
>>>>>>> of March. So now the Board and management will follow the feedback
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> draft proposal on the list. They will decide by 24 April if these
>>>>>>> will be
>>>>>>> the final options to vote on at the GM or if they want to make
>>>> amendments.
>>>>>>> So essentially the decision on what gets voted on at the GM is made
>>>>>>> by
>>>> the
>>>>>>> Board. You can see the minutes from that meeting here (section 3.3
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> Charging Scheme):
>>>>>>> https://www.ripe.net/about-us/executive-board/minutes/2024/174th-executive-board-meeting-minutes/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And it's worth mentioning that this list is for members to discuss
>>>>>>> the
>>>> issues while we and the board will listen. But we will of course reply
>>>> and
>>>>>>> provide information to address the points raised if at all
>>>>>>> possible.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>>> Fergal
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 2:41?PM <sdy at a-n-t.ru <mailto:sdy at a-n-t.ru>
>>>>>>> >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi all!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I want to ask add to vote variant D.
>>>>>>> All as was before+5% inflation and 10E per 1024 addresses IPv4 per
>>>> year (counting at 31 december). Can we try to vote it too?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 22 Mar 2024, at 15:27, Fergal Cunningham <fergalc at ripe.net
>>>> <mailto:fergalc at ripe.net> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This Wednesday, 20 March, we held an Open House with members
>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025. There was a presentation from RIPE
>>>> NCC staff, including our CFO and Managing Director, as well as
>>>> statements from both the Executive Board Chair and Treasurer.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There was a productive discussion about the financial landscape
>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> operating in and thoughts about how best to fund the RIPE NCC.
>>>>>>>>> The
>>>> Executive Board will meet on Monday and discuss what we heard this
>>>> week,
>>>>>>>>> and they will decide on a draft charging proposal to put forward
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> members in April.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The session recording and the slides from the presentation are
>>>> available
>>>>>>>>> at:
>>>>>>>>> https://www.ripe.net/membership/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-charging-scheme-2025/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> At the bottom of this mail you can find the timestamps for the
>>>>>>>>> sections
>>>>>>>>> of the presentation and Q&A.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We greatly appreciate the input we received from members this
>>>>>>>>> week
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> the constructive nature of the discussions. We encourage you all
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>> continue to discuss the charging scheme on this list.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Fergal Cunningham
>>>>>>>>> Head of Membership Engagement
>>>>>>>>> RIPE NCC
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Open House Timestamps
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 01:30 Welcome and Agenda, Fergal Cunningham
>>>>>>>>> 04:30 Development and History of the Charging Scheme, Fergal
>>>>>>>>> Cunningham
>>>>>>>>> 12:45 Consolidation and Inflation, Simon Jan Haytink
>>>>>>>>> 19:10 The Work We Need to Fund, Simon Jan Haytink
>>>>>>>>> 22:30 Summary and Key Questions, Hans Petter Holen
>>>>>>>>> 27:20 Statement from Executive Board Chair, Ond?ej Filip
>>>>>>>>> 30:30 Statement from Executive Board Treasurer, Raymond Jetten
>>>>>>>>> 32:45
>>>> Q&A with RIPE NCC Members
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear Fergal,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What is the formal process of deciding what options the AGM get to
>>>>>>>> vote
>>>>>>>> at, during the upcoming AGM?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I would like to suggest a Consumer Price Index based re-indexing
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> costs, using standard European CPI numbers from Eurostat.  We all
>>>> have to
>>>>>>>> deal with increases in costs due to inflation, and it?s fair that
>>>> RIPE does not have to fight inflation alone.  Yearly inflation as
>>>> released in
>>>>>>>> March 2024 was at 2.4% ?
>>>>>>>> https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-euro-indicators/w/2-03042024-ap
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>> Martin_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> members-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> members-discuss at ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net>
>>>>>>>> https://mailman.ripe.net/
>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>>>>>>>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/sdy%40a-n-t.ru
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----------------------------
>>>>>>> ? ????????? ???????? ???????
>>>>>>> ??? "????? ??? ???????"
>>>>>>> +7(498)785-8-000 ???.
>>>>>>> +7(495)940-92-11 ???.
>>>>>>> +7(925)518-10-69 ???.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> members-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>> members-discuss at ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net>
>>>>>>> https://mailman.ripe.net/
>>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>>>>>>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/martin.millnert%40brainmill.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> members-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>> members-discuss at ripe.net
>>>>>>> https://mailman.ripe.net/
>>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>>>>>>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/sdy%40a-n-t.ru
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----------------------------
>>>>>> ? ????????? ???????? ???????
>>>>>> ??? "????? ??? ???????"
>>>>>> +7(498)785-8-000 ???.
>>>>>> +7(495)940-92-11 ???.
>>>>>> +7(925)518-10-69 ???.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> members-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> members-discuss at ripe.net
>>>>>> https://mailman.ripe.net/
>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>>>>>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/ivaylo%40bglans.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----------------------------
>>>> ? ????????? ???????? ???????
>>>> ??? "????? ??? ???????"
>>>> +7(498)785-8-000 ???.
>>>> +7(495)940-92-11 ???.
>>>> +7(925)518-10-69 ???.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----------------------------
>>>> ? ????????? ???????? ???????
>>>> ??? "????? ??? ???????"
>>>> +7(498)785-8-000 ???.
>>>> +7(495)940-92-11 ???.
>>>> +7(925)518-10-69 ???.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> members-discuss mailing list
>>>> members-discuss at ripe.net
>>>> https://mailman.ripe.net/
>>>> Unsubscribe:
>>>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/ivaylo%40bglans.net
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> -----------------------------
>> ? ????????? ???????? ???????
>> ??? "????? ??? ???????"
>> +7(498)785-8-000 ???.
>> +7(495)940-92-11 ???.
>> +7(925)518-10-69 ???.
>>
>


-----------------------------
С уважением Сербулов Дмитрий
ООО "Альфа Нет Телеком"
+7(498)785-8-000 раб.
+7(495)940-92-11 доп.
+7(925)518-10-69 сот.