[members-discuss] LIR’s billing issues with RIPE NCC, need support

Juri, 

I don't agree with your statements at all. 

As a LIR, you pay a yearly fee and those are per calendar year.  As stated in the Articles of the Association: (https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-696) 

	6.6 If Membership ends in the course of a financial year of the Association, the annual contribution shall nevertheless remain due by the Member in full. 

As a measure to avoid defaulting on invoicing for the above, after a transfer, the yearly cost should be paid prior to any M&A or transfer. 
This wasn't the case a couple years ago, but due to abuse of a few, I don't see how this could be avoided otherwise. It is a clear and elegant solution imho. 

An organization that holds multiple LIRs for obvious reasons, should know the minimal cost upfront or look for the transfer market (as they will have to in 14 months from today) if they don't want the cost for an additional LIR. 

Regards,
Erik Bais

On 04/12/2018, 08:12, "members-discuss on behalf of Juri" <members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net on behalf of hostmaster at ntx.ru> wrote:

    Dear RIPE NCC Members i.e. LIR!
    
    RIPE77 meeting  is over but some questions still active and I want to
    bring them up for discussion. This is long-read, but please read it,
    it’s important.
    
    I work at ISP company and work a lot of with RIPE NCC as well as for LIR
    management and registrations. I want RIPE NCC become better for all LIRs
    and try to participate. For long time I face with RIPE NCC strange
    billing issues, and I feel not comfortable with them. I run ISP company
    and I understand how to manage customers and how usually billing for
    services of the IT company should work.
    
    I will try to split different issues in different emails.
    
    First I want to say that I tried to find an answer for my question from
    Finance department of the RIPE NCC, I spent a time for that and I found
    that it was not correct place for that. I was forwarded to RIPE NCC
    Board for such discussion. I wrote my experience at RIPE77 Meeting to
    the Board and got feedback that the ideas and facts I explained to them
    should be discussed in Members-Discuss list because they are not
    described in Policies. So that’s my try to do that.
    
    Let me show you several simple billing issues. They will be related to
    companies who pays much more than other companies to RIPE NCC. These are
    Multi LIR companies. Yes, everybody knows that company may have several
    LIR accounts at RIPE NCC if company pays membership and setup fees. This
    is quite normal and a lot of companies use this ability. Let’s start.
    
    What kind of issues do we have. Let me explain most important of them.
    
    1) If a company want to do anything (transfer a part or merge with your
    existing company) with one of your LIRs RIPE NCC will ask you to pay
    till the end of the year for all LIRs. This is not fear and not correct
    because RIPE NCC really doesn’t give a LIR service for that companies.
    
    2) Let’s say you just opened in December new one LIR for your company
    (and paid fees for the last 4th part of the year + setup fees) and want
    to do something with other LIR resources on account of the same company.
     RIPE NCC will ask to pay full year for LIR that were opened just in
    current year. What we have? You just get service for last part of the
    year but you should pay for membership for LIR for the time that it was
    not existed. This is insane for IT company to overcharge members for the
    past time.
    
    3) If one company merge another one - they get still limitations for
    keeping several LIRs for several years. Such things should not happen.
    It was not so sometime before but now that happens.
    
    What I see? RIPE NCC overcharge LIRs.
    Why? It was not so some amount of time ago. RIPE NCC didn’t care about
    that, but they changed it without any discussion with members.
    
    Now I want to answer for Important question for those members who wish
    to start telling me about something else.... I will give you an answer
    here. All RIPE NCC members have the limit for changes/transfers and etc
    as 2 years (24 month) of hold time. If this time should be changed -
    it’s a way to Policy development process. Everybody believe that
    expenses for having extra LIR should be for 2 years (24 month), let’s
    say this is what we have and this delay is written in  RIPE NCC
    documents. If we want to discuss this time - it's other one discussion.
    
    In real life this 2 years means 3 years (and usually *N). LIRs have to
    pay extra membership fees for (3-4 years)*N of LIRs, but not for 2 years
    as it should be. I find this unfair for LIRs. I want all LIRs have clear
    billing and pay for services/membership that we have really consumed.
    This is normal and correct to have clear and good billing.
    
    
    What do I suggest?
    
    I suggest RIPE NCC do correct accounting for each LIR for the time this
    LIR instance exists. If LIR has annual billing - then RIPE NCC should
    use it. If LIR selected quarterly billing - RIPE NCC show use. But RIPE
    NCC should not overcharge LIRs for the time they didn't give any
    services for LIR instance.
    
    Please support me and reply to this email. Or write your opinion.
    I believe RIPE NCC should work better for LIRs. Your voice is important.
    
    Juri
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