[ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting

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> From: Sergey A. Mukhin <violet at rosnet.net>
> To: stesin at gu.net
> Cc: lir-wg at ripe.net
> Subject: Re: [ripe-167] Impressions brought from Moscow meeting
> Date: Thursday, February 19, 1998 1:51 AM
> 
> >>>>> "A" == Andrew Stesin <stesin at gu.net> writes:
> A> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:31:21 +0200 (EET)
> A> To: "Sergey A. Mukhin" <violet at rosnet.net>
> A> cc: lir-wg at ripe.net
> 
> A> On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Sergey A. Mukhin wrote:
> 
> S> I'm wondering why Moscovites try to decide something for other people.
> >> 
> >> Well, I am sorry -- that is an obviuos prerogative of Ukrainians ;-)
> 
> A> 	Do you really think that this kinds of comments is appropriate
> A> 	here?
> 
> In no way. What about yours? 
> 
> Anyway, my apologizes to all this list's readers.
> 
> >> I understand pretty well you do not wish be served by Moscow. I cannot
> >> understand why so much words out of that ? Who insists on it ?
> 
> A> 	Authors of ripe-167, and some other Russian authorities
> A> 	(as one can observe from the activities around the issue,
> A> 	i.e. during RIPE-29 meeting).  Probably you also?
> 
> A> 	Mr. Poul-Henning Kamp asked a perfectly reasonable
> A> 	question here while asking what's wrong
> A> 	with the service provided by RIPE itself: "Lets have a
> A> 	show of hands, who couldn't live with this, and why?"
> A> 	("this" means the current state of things).
> 
> A> 	Let's take his (very careful, BTW) approach.  Ok,
> A> 	dear Mr. Sergey A. Mukhin, you (or the *Moscow* company ROSNET
> A> 	where you work) rised your hand up, you cannot
> A> 	live being served by RIPE directly any more;
> A> 	you'd like the whole ex-Roma-Empire (oh sorry, ex-USSR)
> A> 	to be served by a new regional registry in Moscow.
> 
> A> 	Would you please mind explaining the reasons?
> 
> Sorry for a bit late response. Rosnet can live and communicate
> to either RIPE and Internic directly. And many others too.
> And some would prefer be served in Moscow.
> 
> On the other hand there is a tendency to a fast growing number
> of LIRs in the fSU countries and it might make sense for RIPE
> itself to establish its office or RIR for those who agree
> to be served there to get load off the main office. ( Not a
> business of mine, I agree. ) Consider the size of fSU region.
> 
> Actually more full comments on the RIPE 167 were already
> given by Alexey Platonov which is one of its authors.
> 
> A> 	Who else rises the hand?  Mr. Alexey Platonov (Moscow,
> A> 	RosNIIROS), and Mr. Anatoly Kramer (Moscow, ??? -- who
> A> 	doesn't even aware of what e-mail is, AFAIK) -- two men,
> A> 	two Russian semi-governmental organisations, each wants
> A> 	to establish a "big registry" in Moscow, and to extend the scope
> A> 	of this RIR to adjucent countries, taking away any choice
> A> 	of where to be served from those countries.
> 
> Well, and who was 'contra' except Ukraine? Let us try and see what will
follow.
> We did not mean to gather almost all and ask them move hands here
> in Moscow. We told all about the whole thing; everybody interested coult
> present at that meeting.  The resume of it was sent to all and we are
> awaiting for votes "contra". There were no more "contra" yet.

Just couldn't avoid a temptation to include my comments to Mr.Stesin's
letter on the voting issue as I sent them just before I received this
message.

	"Futher developments on the statistics. If anyone tries to sort out
opinions expressed in the discussion he or she should come up with
interesting results - the huge majority participating in this mailing list
are explicitly against, including LIRs not only in the FSU area, but LIRs
in other European countries. Here is the vote!"

> 
> A> 	It seems to me that the whole idea is local to Russia (even
> A> 	to Moscow) and has nothing to do with community interests (whatever
> A> 	it means).  It's some kind of bureacratic intra-Moscow battle...
> 
> A> 	My conclusion:
> 
> A> 	* I'd like the ripe-167 document in it's current form to
> A> 	* be obsoleted.  I'd also like a new edition, say  ripe-167+
> A> 	* to be issued, with all the current (very weak) argumentation
> A> 	* removed, with solid arguments "pro" added, and with authorship
> A> 	* more representative than a single man from Moscow.  Where
> A> 	* is (so hyped) community, anyway?
> 
> A> 	If this hypothetic ripe-167+ document either doesn't have
> A> 	a really solid argumentation, or doesn't have support
> A> 	from the *representative* community, -- then who needs
> A> 	all this show?  If the scope of interest in a RIR is
> A> 	limited to Moscow and Russia -- make it a "Russian National
> A> 	Internet Registry" and we Ukrainians just won't care.
> 
> >> Any people decide most ( or all ) of their own problems theirselves.
> 
> A> 	This statement of yours contradicts directly with the
> A> 	approach of ripe-167 document.
> 
> I am afraid you mistreat the approach.
> 
> >> But sometimes it is better to unite to get the solutions easier.
> 
> A> 	Would you mind explaining the benefits of uniting with you, please.
> A> 	(Let's note that this last statement of yours has nothing close
> A> 	to ripe-167's content at all).  No offense: friendship and
> A> 	union are different things, aren't they?
> 
> I meant benefits of uniting .(point) If you suppose uniting of 
> everybody but us, that sounds a bit odd, does not it?
> 
> Besides, I was not an author of RIPE 167 and anyway can have my
> own opinion no matter if some documents exist anywhere or not.
> 
> As for my letters hereabout -- that is my treatment of that a bit
> vague general document plus a bit of common sense. Plus my point
> of view, for that matter, and there are people sharing it with me.
> 
> >> If Ukraine does not want - nobody can insist. Why are you SO bothered
> >> by the fact somebody else wants ?
> 
> A> 	Pretty simple: some people here in Ukraine (me among them)
> A> 	have a strong feeling that some Moscow guys want to "unite"
> A> 	us with them without taking our opinion into attentions.
> 
> I am afraid I would never understand such a point of view. We declare
> free choice for all. Moreover, Ukraine is independent and could you
> point out the way bad Moscow guys can "unite" it ? Again, that is
> a union, not a Soviet union;-), everybody has the same rights by
> definition as well as the choice to unite or get out any time.
> 
> I think Internet community is democratic enough not to allow
> such things anyway ( even if Russia ached to "unite" somebody ).
> 
> >> Yes, thanks God, USSR is already a history. But even now we still
> >> can see some consequences of the Roma Empire. And as nobody can
> >> change history of the past we just have to take into consideration
> >> the facts no matter if we like them or not.
> 
> A> 	The fact is: the Soviet Union is dead.  Do we need another
> A> 	union, called "Russian Union", instead?  Oh thanks... maybe
> A> 	sometime later, when the benefits of it will be clear
> A> 	and obvious, when there will be some interest from *both* sides...
> A> 	if there will be any.  But not now, please!
> 
> Well. Do we need RIPE? Let us all make our own internets deep inside.
> And it's done ;-) (joke)
> 
> I meant just the following effect of the Soviet Union: 6 years are
> not enough for a new generation who knows English rather than
> Russia; not enough to get old communications completely changed.
> 
> 
> Sure, I am writing the third time here, as you would like! Now or
> later or never! That is your choice only.
> 
> As for Russia, we have the situation we need to do things. Already.
> And we try it.
> 
> And why to say the whole idea is wrong? Just because somebody does
> not like it right now ( or even will never like it )?
> 
> >>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Sergey A. Mukhin			|    violet at rosnet.net
> >> Network Administrator		|    http://violet.rosnet.net/
> >> Russian Telecommunications Network	|    Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15
> >> Moscow, Russia			|	  + 7 095 755 85 88
> >>
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> >> *     If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly.    
*
> >>
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> 
> A> Best regards,
> A> Andrew Stesin
> 
> A> nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE
> 
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> 
> -- 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     Sergey A. Mukhin			|    violet at rosnet.net
>     Network Administrator		|    http://violet.rosnet.net/
>     Russian Telecommunications Network	|    Tel: + 7 095 206 62 15
>     Moscow, Russia			|	  + 7 095 755 85 88
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *     If you can't learn do it well learn to enjoy doing it badly.     *
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------