Chat Logs
Sebastian Wiesinger - 2023-05-24 16:12:14
Hallo!
Sebastian Wiesinger - 2023-05-24 16:12:25
Microphones Work
Serbulov Dmitry - 2023-05-24 16:13:55
work
Piotr Strzyżewski - 2023-05-24 16:15:38
Hello
Laurenz Ruprecht - 2023-05-24 16:23:45
Very good music
Andy Trushin - 2023-05-24 16:25:43
Hi to all!
Anders Mundt Due - 2023-05-24 16:29:23
the meeting jingle :)
Alexis Lameire - 2023-05-24 16:30:31
Hello
Serbulov Dmitry - 2023-05-24 16:33:54
Hi! And what we will do with scheme voting? Who have Any idea?
Zihan Sun - 2023-05-24 16:33:58
Hello all
Anders Mundt Due - 2023-05-24 16:34:59
voting is usually explained during the meeting
Tiago Felipe Goncalves - 2023-05-24 16:35:00
Hello
Alexis Lameire - 2023-05-24 16:35:01
Definitively the most tedious subject of today
Randy Bush - 2023-05-24 16:35:14
are we not going to warned not to type questions into this chat? :)
Brian Nisbet - 2023-05-24 16:35:51
I mean, I could do it unofficially if that would help, randy? :)
Anders Mundt Due - 2023-05-24 16:36:05
indirectly, wasn't that what randy did ?
Anders Mundt Due - 2023-05-24 16:36:24
or do we need it clarified ?
Hans Petter Holen - 2023-05-24 16:37:05
Please use the Q&A function for questions. We have a chat monitor that will read out the questions after the presentations. Or you can ask to be put in the queue to speak.
Antony Gollan - 2023-05-24 16:38:08
Sorry, was just finding the standard text...
Antony Gollan - 2023-05-24 16:38:09
Hi everyone, I'm Antony from the RIPE NCC. This chat panel is meant for discussion ONLY. If you have questions for the speaker and you want the session chair to read it out, please write it in the Q&A window also stating your affiliation. Otherwise, you can ask questions using the microphone icon. Please note that all chat transcripts will be archived and made available to the public on https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2023/documentation-and-archives
Anders Mundt Due - 2023-05-24 16:38:45
thank you both for making it clear!
Randy Bush - 2023-05-24 16:38:51
whew!
Fergal Cunningham - 2023-05-24 16:39:16
Questions to the speaker in Q&A, questions to each other are always fine in here :)
Anders Mundt Due - 2023-05-24 16:39:53
I was looking for a 'calm' emoji.. but I found a :camel: that'll do
Laurenz Ruprecht - 2023-05-24 16:40:49
:hugging_face:
Manuel Casarin - 2023-05-24 16:41:29
a solution is, like we are making, is to reduce the costs with more efficients process...it's easy to augment the LIR's fee
Fergal Cunningham - 2023-05-24 16:42:55
The survey that Hans Petter mentions... https://www.ripe.net/participate/member-support/surveys/ripe-ncc-survey-2023
Alexis Lameire - 2023-05-24 16:50:10
Definitively, a good db should automate a lot of SOP
Sebastian Wiesinger - 2023-05-24 16:52:37
I fully support people flying business, have you been in Economy for 10+ hours?! I would not want anyone to suffer through this.
Frederic Hermann - 2023-05-24 16:53:52
I'd say it depend on your size
Alexis Lameire - 2023-05-24 16:53:54
Definitively 10 hour is a fairly huge flight, where you should add 2 hour from and go to the airport, so it's not shocking and quite common on many company
Łukasz Jarosz - 2023-05-24 16:54:58
Since Netherland's taxes, rent etc are so high, why RIPE is not considering moving within European Union to "cheaper" country?
Alexis Lameire - 2023-05-24 16:56:12
in the other hand, Netherland is quite central and well deserved from the whole europe, it's make sense for me ;)
Rob Evans - 2023-05-24 16:57:24
@Alexis As it was described as "flight time", I was guessing 10hrs was for the whole trip (out and return)?
Randy Bush - 2023-05-24 16:57:40
is there a less expensive locale with better cuisine and less tourists? :)
Sebastian Wiesinger - 2023-05-24 16:59:50
If you move your company all your employees would have to move with you (and they might not want to). The moving cost alone for you and your employees (not only physically, but also legally) would be gigantic. I think this is not feasible.
Florian Streibelt - 2023-05-24 17:00:49
And _all_ contracts with all members probably would need an update as well, new banking account, etc. will burn a lot of money and time
Sebastian Wiesinger - 2023-05-24 17:00:58
yes
Sebastian Wiesinger - 2023-05-24 17:02:26
q.e.d.
Brian Nisbet - 2023-05-24 17:02:51
And, ya know, additional travel costs etc. etc.
Alex Antener - 2023-05-24 17:02:57
why avoid taxes? - it's ok to pay taxes. the problem is usually the governments that don't use it clever. so better fix governments insteadc of running away from taxes
Łukasz Jarosz - 2023-05-24 17:04:26
I don't advise to avoid taxes, but rather optimizing them. I don't see any reason why I have to finance Dutch government instead of for example German or French counterpart with my membership fee.
Alex Antener - 2023-05-24 17:05:01
ack
Randy Bush - 2023-05-24 17:05:07
please state name and affilation at mic
Sebastian Wiesinger - 2023-05-24 17:09:31
I would rather RIPE NCC stayed out of Germany, our governments sometimes are keen on interfering with things they have little to none knowledge of. It seems to me the Netherlands has a more "hands off" approach to that.
Florian Streibelt - 2023-05-24 17:10:33
True that. I don't want to imagine how many search warrants german law enforcement would get against the ripe DB etc
Florian Streibelt - 2023-05-24 17:11:08
and they will just rip the servers out of the racks and take them with them
Alexis Lameire - 2023-05-24 17:18:22
Sebastian, in France too :D
Anders Mundt Due - 2023-05-24 17:30:33
.. 650% does sound high
Lutz Donnerhacke - 2023-05-24 17:30:52
Depends on the base line
Laurenz Ruprecht - 2023-05-24 17:31:59
@Sebastian: Yes, Germany would be very dangerous. It is not that unlikely that at some day a German court would decide RIPE NCC has to ban subnets due to copyright or other legal violations. While I think that also other jurisdictions know this "co-responsibility" as the last chance to fight against copyright violations, I think Germany is one if not the most offensive country when it comes to such legal questions.
Lutz Donnerhacke - 2023-05-24 17:33:05
But German courts are free to decide so, even if NCC is located in NL
Laurenz Ruprecht - 2023-05-24 17:33:37
Thats right, but it comes to NL to execute such decisions or not
Anders Mundt Due - 2023-05-24 17:34:11
perhaps NCC should be distrbuted over more countries ?
Lutz Donnerhacke - 2023-05-24 17:34:34
Don't tell the German LEA, that there is a European juristical area
Laurenz Ruprecht - 2023-05-24 17:35:17
Even under European law The Netherlands could say that such a decision is against the ordre public. If that is likely, I cannot say of course.
Łukasz Jarosz - 2023-05-24 17:42:27
@Anders there should be multi location redundancy strategy, but probably there is none since board is pushing towards the cloud...
Sebastian Wiesinger - 2023-05-24 17:45:19
I thought we would like to reduce costs :)
Manuel Casarin - 2023-05-24 17:46:00
@Sebatian i'm agree with you
Lutz Donnerhacke - 2023-05-24 17:46:33
You have to convince the local authorities, that the existence of the organization at this place is more advantageous to them than otherwise. And you have to do this in the long term. (thinking of you, ICANN)
Anders Mundt Due - 2023-05-24 17:47:17
is it just me that's not hearing "name and affiliation" a lot ?
Anders Mundt Due - 2023-05-24 17:48:43
and suddenly I'm hearing it a lot .. ;)
Piotr Strzyżewski - 2023-05-24 17:49:28
"To move twice is like getting burned once" in Polish :)
Piotr Strzyżewski - 2023-05-24 17:49:55
and we have already moved once ;-)
Florian Streibelt - 2023-05-24 17:50:19
same saying is in germany, moving three times is like being bombed
Ben Shallcroft - 2023-05-24 18:18:33
Voting for A is not the way to change to a linear categories model where you pay for exactly what you own! That is asking (seemingly, from the email chains) the vast majority of members to shoulder a considerably higher cost for at least a year until we can vote to increase the upper limit of costs!
Tom Hill - 2023-05-24 18:23:06
Whomever's typing next to a mic, please stop (is it Ondrej?)
Ondrej Filip - 2023-05-24 18:24:08
Thank you
Tom Hill - 2023-05-24 18:24:20
No no, thank you :)
Sebastian Wiesinger - 2023-05-24 18:24:42
I think 50€ a year for a global resource (AS) is not too much to ask, and I'm sure you can find someone to sponsor you if this is a hurdle and you have a need for the resource.
Randy Bush - 2023-05-24 18:25:08
you are offering to sponsor how many folk?
Sascha Lenz - 2023-05-24 18:25:37
I think it's a bit arrogant to talk about what other people "should be able to afford" in such a diverse environment :-/
Łukasz Jarosz - 2023-05-24 18:25:47
50EUR per year is perfectly reasonable fee compared even to domains
Sebastian Wiesinger - 2023-05-24 18:26:20
Well you also need to afford a box with BGP software and an uplink. If someone is sponsoring this for you they can sponsor the AS as well. If you pay for this yourself you could pay the AS as well.
Sascha Lenz - 2023-05-24 18:27:24
there's a difference between sponsoring one time costs and recurring fees
Sebastian Wiesinger - 2023-05-24 18:27:37
an uplink and a box cost recurring fees
Florian Streibelt - 2023-05-24 18:27:40
oh shut up already
Leo Goehrs - 2023-05-24 18:28:09
He is right, 42M do allocate ASN/IP is a lot !
Tobias Fiebig - 2023-05-24 18:28:16
Is this a call to burn down the very nature of a collaborative Internet, supported by public and communal infrastructure?
Łukasz Jarosz - 2023-05-24 18:28:38
Philip Baker, has very good comment about transparency
Dennis Koerner - 2023-05-24 18:28:56
I think the RIPE NCC is doing a great job for the european internet and the community. The money we pay is spent in a great way.
Pascal Gloor - 2023-05-24 18:28:56
oh come on, we're hungry.
Florian Streibelt - 2023-05-24 18:29:08
if your goal is to maximize your personal profit by selling ressources of course collarborative internet is in your way
Siyuan Miao - 2023-05-24 18:29:16
These words hah
Florian Streibelt - 2023-05-24 18:29:17
do you notice he is the first and only one shouting
Pascal Gloor - 2023-05-24 18:29:48
why, he's sounds angry. We can calmly talk about that.
Markus Zeilinger - 2023-05-24 18:29:50
I think with the Model A it will be like the whole world works, the often referred to "middle class" will pay for all others.
Brian Nisbet - 2023-05-24 18:30:14
Won't someone think of the children...
Dennis Koerner - 2023-05-24 18:30:15
He doesn't understand the nature of the internet community in europe. I hope those guys won't take over the RIPE in the future.
Lutz Donnerhacke - 2023-05-24 18:30:28
This commenter is the best advocate for any fee on ressouces. The higher, the better.
Pascal Gloor - 2023-05-24 18:30:50
"I want", that's not how a community works.
Tobias Fiebig - 2023-05-24 18:30:55
nope
Florian Streibelt - 2023-05-24 18:31:03
Unfortunately he is not at all transparent about his activities and involcements
Siyuan Miao - 2023-05-24 18:31:24
Is what he is saying against the Code of Conduct? :-D
Dennis Koerner - 2023-05-24 18:31:35
For what LIR is he in the meeting?
Siyuan Miao - 2023-05-24 18:32:07
Larus I believe
Lutz Donnerhacke - 2023-05-24 18:32:15
@Pascal, "I want" is the common phrase for the current community in the world. Internet folks are outdated.
Tobias Fiebig - 2023-05-24 18:32:37
Well, guess we have to go back.
Florian Streibelt - 2023-05-24 18:32:37
THANK YOU
Dennis Koerner - 2023-05-24 18:32:45
@Lutz I hope you are wrong with that.
Pascal Gloor - 2023-05-24 18:32:54
Lutz, still, we're not like that. (RIPE Community)
Randy Bush - 2023-05-24 18:34:05
who is speaking?
Tobias Fiebig - 2023-05-24 18:34:12
Tina, AMZ
Lutz Donnerhacke - 2023-05-24 18:34:47
You're right. RIPE community. Not Internet community. The Internet people are trying to destroy the interconnection devices with encrypted UDP
Randy Bush - 2023-05-24 18:35:04
sorry, i was too subtle. the speakers should intro
Tobias Fiebig - 2023-05-24 18:36:04
There was a rather nice collission between me and Geoff Huston re: the end-to-end principle, and the internet migrating to become a unidirectional content delivery mechanic for consumption purposes.
Tobias Fiebig - 2023-05-24 18:36:56
Base point being... the Internet is going there; Question is whether it is a good thing or not.
Hans Petter Holen - 2023-05-24 18:37:13
https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-795 page 43 gives a breakdown pr service for 2022
Pascal Gloor - 2023-05-24 18:39:23
I though so.
Ondrej Filip - 2023-05-24 18:42:00
The Q&A queue is closed.
Anders Mundt Due - 2023-05-24 18:42:39
we should just disable IPv4 on the internet .. it's becomming a headache ..
Tobias Fiebig - 2023-05-24 18:43:09
@Anders: Flag-day, just like in the good old times. ;-)
Georg Kahest - 2023-05-24 18:43:18
what stops you :D
Robert Scheck - 2023-05-24 18:43:25
Hans Petter Holen: Page 27 of ripe-796 for FTEs is quite brief
compared to page 43 of ripe-795 for budgets (if this was an indirect answer to me).
Tobias Fiebig - 2023-05-24 18:43:33
A lot more parties to coordinate than last time. ;-)
Georg Kahest - 2023-05-24 18:43:50
don't be part of legacy run v6 only :D
Tobias Fiebig - 2023-05-24 18:44:49
;-P
Sebastian Wiesinger - 2023-05-24 18:45:50
I don't think getting an AS number for free is the most effective way to get young people in the community.
Dennis Koerner - 2023-05-24 18:45:50
Netflix or Spotify do cost more in a year. Where is the problem?
Tobias Fiebig - 2023-05-24 18:46:30
it is a complex issue which has been non-ideal presented across various statements.
Dennis Koerner - 2023-05-24 18:47:54
We are also sponsoring ASNs to some private people. Noone had any problems in paying the 50 EUR per year.
Tobias Fiebig - 2023-05-24 18:47:59
There are some real problems (like entities using the free ASN to pair it with /46-/48 from their PA for ~100e/year.
Phillip Baker - 2023-05-24 18:48:26
I feel like many of the LIRs doing hobby ASNs will probably get more than their €50s back when they get their category charging scheme reductions
Sebastian Wiesinger - 2023-05-24 18:48:55
the hobby ASNs ar not LIRs, they're endusers that have a sponsoring agreemeint with an LIR
Sebastian Wiesinger - 2023-05-24 18:49:06
otherwise 50€ would be a complete non-issue
Tobias Fiebig - 2023-05-24 18:49:40
Well, there _are_ some LIR hobby ASNs ;-)
Phillip Baker - 2023-05-24 18:49:41
Of course, but the LIR can choose to use their LIR discount on continuing to sponsor their End Users hobby ASNs
Harry Cross - 2023-05-24 18:49:46
Yes, the ASN still requires the same amount of work from the NCC no matter the use case
Harry Cross - 2023-05-24 18:50:09
In fact, I'm willing to guess that validating a living human is more work than an entity (see the rise of e-government like Companies House)
Georg Kahest - 2023-05-24 18:51:22
if im LIR wouldn't i be validating the ASN owner rather then NCC ?
Tobias Fiebig - 2023-05-24 18:51:33
nope
Harry Cross - 2023-05-24 18:51:42
The end-user still has to submit their documentation to the NCC for sanctions screening etc
Georg Kahest - 2023-05-24 18:52:02
ah okey, that has always been the case ?
Tobias Fiebig - 2023-05-24 18:52:11
yeah, and while you as LIR technically should also verify, RIPE will do full due dilligence.
Harry Cross - 2023-05-24 18:52:34
Yes, there used to be a case where the end user could submit that to the LIR and then the LIR submits that to RIPE, GDPR issues came into play here so the NCC now sends the LIR a link to their third party screening service for the end user to use
Georg Kahest - 2023-05-24 18:52:40
okey ty :)
Anders Mundt Due - 2023-05-24 18:52:50
as a LIR you at least need to verify if you want the "new asn" as a customer of yours :)
Anders Mundt Due - 2023-05-24 18:53:21
and I quite appreciate NCCs validation
Harry Cross - 2023-05-24 18:53:21
I will admit, I have sponsored ASNs for free for people, but I fully admit the work that causes both me and the NCC is quite considerable and would pay for that
Randy Bush - 2023-05-24 18:54:01
i too loan ASs and IP space to researchers, underfunded IXen, ...
Tobias Fiebig - 2023-05-24 18:54:17
Randy: Loan or sponsor? ;)
Randy Bush - 2023-05-24 18:54:29
loan
Florian Streibelt - 2023-05-24 18:54:54
He makes an offer you cannot reject :D
Tobias Fiebig - 2023-05-24 18:55:00
o.O
Florian Streibelt - 2023-05-24 18:55:19
eh, dont want to reject. thah ehrm was lost in translation :D
Robert Scheck - 2023-05-24 18:55:24
Btw, end users in the EU also need to pay VAT additionally to the 50 EUR.
Tobias Fiebig - 2023-05-24 18:55:33
Well, i think those loans are not the issue. ;-)
Randy Bush - 2023-05-24 18:56:41
actually those loans cause NCC work. i.e. the MK IX needed reverse dns control etc. see 198.133.206.0/24
Tobias Fiebig - 2023-05-24 19:00:53
hm...
Tobias Fiebig - 2023-05-24 19:01:05
well, but there were no passport validations etc, no?
Pascal Gloor - 2023-05-24 19:01:17
the background tho....
Markus Zeilinger - 2023-05-24 19:06:08
What do you think, which charging model will be adopted?
Tobias Fiebig - 2023-05-24 19:06:21
Most likely the one with most votes. ;-P
Pierre-Henry Muller - 2023-05-24 19:06:43
D or C not the A
Markus Zeilinger - 2023-05-24 19:06:57
Well that's shocking news to me! ;-)
Robert Scheck - 2023-05-24 19:07:05
Btw, the voting mail is sent from an IPv6-enabled server: Received: from ip201.mta.peytzmail.com (ip201.mta.peytzmail.com [IPv6:2a03:dc80:0:f178:0:0:0:201]) :)
Pierre-Henry Muller - 2023-05-24 19:07:56
you have already received the email with vote infos?
Randy Bush - 2023-05-24 19:08:06
i have
Tobias Fiebig - 2023-05-24 19:08:11
same
Patrick Scheck - 2023-05-24 19:08:17
yes, they came at around 5 P.M.
Tom Van den Berg - 2023-05-24 19:08:20
I received it, but I had to release it from the O365 SPAM filter
Tobias Fiebig - 2023-05-24 19:08:23
@pierre-henry: No v6 or not TLS1.2? ;-)
Randy Bush - 2023-05-24 19:08:25
two separate, one with url and one with password
Sascha Lenz - 2023-05-24 19:08:25
two or three mails or so, yes
Sascha Lenz - 2023-05-24 19:08:34
ok two :-)
Dennis Koerner - 2023-05-24 19:08:49
Got mine 17:35 CEST
Pierre-Henry Muller - 2023-05-24 19:09:03
I have the password but not the email with link
Tom Hill - 2023-05-24 19:09:18
@Tom that magic eight ball quarantine ate my Meetecho URL for the GM, but not the Assembly voting email ... Drives me wild :/
Jan Münnich - 2023-05-24 19:09:38
Maybe your mail server does not support TLS 1.2 as required?
Matt Martin - 2023-05-24 19:10:19
Won't be an A vote here.
Tobias Fiebig - 2023-05-24 19:10:49
the fun thing is that even though i am a hobby AS, A will effectively cost me the same as D.
Pierre-Henry Muller - 2023-05-24 19:10:49
if I receive one email with tls1.2 why I have not received the second one?
Ulka Athale - 2023-05-24 19:11:08
If you haven't received either of the two emails, please let us know at [email protected]
Dennis Koerner - 2023-05-24 19:11:09
Will be an A here
Christopher Allison - 2023-05-24 19:11:20
@pierre, gmail?
Pierre-Henry Muller - 2023-05-24 19:11:29
nop
Georg Kahest - 2023-05-24 19:11:55
AGM messages were quarantined as bulk mail for me aswell
Florian Streibelt - 2023-05-24 19:11:57
one mail is sent by NCC one by the voting company
Florian Streibelt - 2023-05-24 19:12:16
so its possible you receive one but not the other
Florian Streibelt - 2023-05-24 19:12:26
@Pierre-Henry
Manuel Casarin - 2023-05-24 19:12:31
the link say me that the election is not yet open
Phillip Baker - 2023-05-24 19:12:43
O365 passed both to my inbox here, but others have had things get junk foldered
Florian Streibelt - 2023-05-24 19:12:46
election is usually opend when the GM ended
Florian Streibelt - 2023-05-24 19:12:56
@Manuel
Phillip Baker - 2023-05-24 19:13:17
and/or quarantined, if you have quarantine policies
Pierre-Henry Muller - 2023-05-24 19:13:37
ok I find it, they don't match rules to go to RIPE directory :D
Georg Kahest - 2023-05-24 19:13:47
mhmh O365 here aswell so definetly check it if you using that cloud
Tom Van den Berg - 2023-05-24 19:14:31
FYI : https://security.microsoft.com/quarantine ;-)
Robert Scheck - 2023-05-24 19:15:59
Stenography is "funny": "€50100 per accepted transfer request"
Piotr Strzyżewski - 2023-05-24 19:16:07
Many thanks!
Fergal Cunningham - 2023-05-24 19:16:14
If anyone has issues with mails or voting, please email [email protected] and we'll help you out.
Pascal Gloor - 2023-05-24 19:16:22
Thanks Feral!
Piotr Strzyżewski - 2023-05-24 19:16:23
Have a great evening :)
Robert Scheck - 2023-05-24 19:16:34
Thank you.
Jacob Hassing - 2023-05-24 19:17:10
Thanks. Have a great evening :-)