Minutes

Hotel Krasnapolsky - Amsterdam, the Netherlands

Scribe: Rob Allen, Sabine Mader

RIPE NCC General Meeting, May 2004 Agenda

1. Welcome, Preliminaries
2. Presentation of the 2003 Financial Report
3. Approval of 2003 Audited Financial Report
4. Report from the RIPE NCC
5. Financial Status Q1/2004 and Outlook
6. Report from the Executive Board
7. The New Clearing House
8. Presentation on the Scoring Algorithm
9. RIPE NCC Executive Board Elections
10. Close

1. Welcome, Preliminaries

Kees Neggers, RIPE NCC Executive Board Chair, opened the meeting at 14:00.
He welcomed the attendees and noted that guests from the other Regional Internet Registries and RIPE NCC staff were present.

2. Presentation of the 2003 Financial Report
Jochem de Ruig, Chief Financial Officer of the RIPE NCC, presented the 2003 Financial Report.

The Chair asked for questions.
There were none.

3. Approval of 2003 Audited Financial Report

The formal resolution:
"The general meeting adopts the 2003 Financial Report of the RIPE NCC thus discharging the Executive Board with regard to its actions as laid down in the Annual Report."

The resolution was unanimously accepted.

4. Report from the RIPE NCC

Axel Pawlik, Managing Director of the RIPE NCC, presented the operational report from the RIPE NCC.

Axel discussed new items for the RIPE NCC Activity Plan 2005 and formally asked RIPE NCC Members for input on the Activity Plan.

Q: Frode Greisen asked how many languages will be covered by the RIPE NCC Help Desk.

A: Axel replied that the official language will be English. But the RIPE NCC does have many members of staff with different languages, so where possible the RIPE NCC Help Desk will use the appropriate language for the member.

Q: Gert Doering asked for clarification of whether the RIPE NCC's K-root activities were listed in the current RIPE NCC Activity Plan.

A: Axel replied that K-root anycasting is in the current RIPE NCC Activity Plan. He also stated that next year the RIPE NCC is looking to expand this activity and build on the current model. He mentioned that this also ties into government concerns about the stability of root nodes and the need to reassure them about the resilience of the root node system.
Axel asked that members give input to the RIPE NCC Activity Plan, either at this RIPE NCC General Meeting or via the mailing lists.

Q: Wilfried Woeber commented that he was in favour of most of the items presented by Axel for the next Activity Plan, as he has enough information to judge them. However, he stated that he didn't have enough information to judge the mid-term impact of setting up a Help Desk. He noted that he would like to have an approximate idea of the cost and would like to know if this would impact on member fees. In addition, he noted that he would like to know the RIPE NCC priorities in regard to the Help Desk, as it represents opening another interface between the customer and the service provider.

He asked what would happen if the RIPE NCC receive an avalanche of queries, and asked whether supporting these additional queries would affect the current customer interfaces offered to the membership. He stated that he wasn't trying to criticise, but that he could see a danger that in not doing this in a proper way, the very good intention represented by the Help Desk might misfire.

A: Paul Rendek, RIPE NCC Head of Member Services and Communications, replied that a lot of ongoing groundwork is needed on this. He stated that there would be no negative impact on the current service levels. He also pointed out that the Help Desk would be intended to consolidate all the current services for communicating with the RIPE NCC and all the customer communication channels currently in place at the RIPE NCC (e.g. RIPE DBM, billing etc).

Q: Mike Hughes asked whether there would be any movement on this before the next RIPE Meeting. He also asked that the RIPE NCC report back on this at the RIPE NCC Services Working Group at RIPE 49.

He also commented that if you introduce a phone line service, it is likely that users will stop reading documents and will just pick up the phone at any opportunity.

A: Axel replied that that is a good point. At the moment the RIPE NCC is gathering comments so that it can incorporate them into the Activity Plan that will be written over the summer.

Axel also noted that this is the Activity Plan for the next year, and that it was only currently May 2004. He added that the RIPE NCC was pulling in the members' advice early and that this was a good thing.

Comment: Mike Hughes commented that he was willing to accept that the Help Desk could be a positive thing as issues can be resolved more quickly over the telephone.

Comment: Paul Rendek noted that ARIN and APNIC already have a Help Desk, so the RIPE NCC is using their experiences to help with this. At first, these RIRs experienced a big influx of calls, but over time this leveled off.

Comment: Wilfried Woeber commented that from a cost perspective you can not use the North American model as there is a difference in cost structure between here and North America. He noted that, for example, if you offer toll free numbers or charged numbers, this might have a strong impact on how the service is used.

5. Financial Status Q1/2004 and Outlook
Kees Neggers, RIPE NCC Executive Board Chair, noted that the RIPE NCC is capable of producing timely financial reports and getting them audited and approved by May.

Jochem de Ruig, RIPE NCC Chief Financial Officer, presented an update on the financial status of the RIPE NCC.

Kees noted that the reason for the recent Membership Growth survey was to help the RIPE NCC improve its planning.

Axel stated that the RIPE NCC did this to get members' feedback on how they see the economic forecast for ISPs. He noted that the reason for this is because the RIPE NCC is not as knowledgeable as its members when it comes to local economies.

Axel stated that the Membership Growth survey revealed that, broadly, the members agree with the RIPE NCC's predictions.

Axel mentioned that the members predict a slightly higher rate of growth than the RIPE NCC did. Axel gave the examples provided by the membership of a predicted 11-12 % growth in Russia and the Middle East.

He mentioned that the Membership Growth survey revealed that members were cautious about growth in Eastern Europe.

Axel noted that, in total, there were 825 member responses to this survey and that the data is summarised on the RIPE NCC website. He stated that he thought the survey was
a useful thing and will probably be repeated next year.

6. Report from the Executive Board

Kees presented a report from the RIPE NCC Executive Board. The report included current and future focus of Executive Board activities.

Kees handed over to Frode Greisen, ICANN Liaison on the RIPE NCC Executive Board, to give a report on what has been happening with ICANN and the RIRs.

Frode noted that it is important for all the Regional Internet Registries that the process for getting addresses from IANA is assured and stable. The idea is that this process is based on policies developed by consensus by all the RIR communities.

He noted that things are going well, and that the RIPE NCC is getting the addresses it needs to serve the members.

Frode noted that the RIRs have agreed on policies for IPv4 allocation from IANA to the RIRs. He mentioned that there was a delay when there was an increased demand for IPv6, and the RIPE NCC requested more from IANA.

He explained that IANA had to defer to Internet Architecture Board (IAB) who have since replied that there is nothing strange in this request for additional IPv6 space.

Frode mentioned the history of the Address Supporting Organization (ASO) and the ASO Address Council. He mentioned that over time it became clear that the set-up of the ASO was not ideal and also that ICANN had started its process of evolution.

He noted that the RIPE NCC had signed the ASO MoU several years ago but that evolution had make the system described in this MoU less than ideal, so that the RIRs had started to develop a new policy framework.

Frode explained that part of this includes the ASO function becoming part of the Number Resource Organization (NRO).

Frode noted that one difference from the ASO Address Council is that the NRO Number Council will have 2 members elected by each RIR region plus a member elected by each RIR Board.

He stated that more firmly tying the ASO function to the RIRs will help the relationship between ICANN and the RIRs.

Frode noted that ICANN and RIRs agree on this framework.
He mentioned that the end to the public comment period on this Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) in the RIPE policy fora was Friday, 7 May. He stated that the next stage is to make the final changes to this policy framework and then for the MoU to be signed.

Frode noted that work on a service contract had started several years ago but work was suspended when ICANN introduced their Evolution and Reform project. This work should now resume but since the scope is international and involving legal work it is not sure that a contract can be signed in 2004.

Frode asked for questions.
There were none.
Kees asked for any comments on how the NCC is operating today.
There were none.

7. The New Clearing House

János Zsakó, RIPE NCC Executive Board Treasurer, presented the New Clearing House Proposal and the New Standard Service Agreement / Terms and Conditions.

Comment: Andre Koopal commented that he thought there would be problems for companies to get the new Service Agreement and Terms and Conditions signed.

Janos replied that the RIPE NCC will send out an explanatory letter, with an explanation of the new Clearing House and an agreement already signed by the RIPE NCC. He also noted that the RIPE NCC would give contributors a reasonable time to return this. He noted that the RIPE NCC is aware that some companies have long processes for signing documents.

Kees noted that this is a one-time trade-off and will lead to administrative advantages over time.

Q: It was asked whether there were any legal obligations in the current Service Agreement for members to sign the new agreement, and what would happen if they didn't want to sign it.

A: Janos replied that this is not very different to the current Service Agreement, and not disadvantageous to members. He noted that the RIPE NCC will send reminders to members who may forget to return signed copy.

Comment: It was mentioned that although this would be very useful for the RIPE community if these changes were made effective as soon as possible, it is possible that the legal departments of members' companies may have a problem signing a new Service Agreement.

Janos replied that the RIPE NCC on their own will not change this. It is up to the RIPE NCC General Meeting to approve the updated documents. He also noted that the legal
departments should perhaps first read these documents and then, if they object, it can be discussed on an individual basis.

Kees noted that the aim is to operate efficiently and smoothly. He added that having individual contracts with each member is exactly what the RIPE NCC was trying to avoid. He mentioned that general terms and agreements are all lightweight and help the RIPE NCC to run without unnecessary bureaucracy. He also stated that he was more than happy to discuss with individual members' legal departments what has been changed and why it has been changed.

The formal resolution:

"The General Meeting adopts the New Clearing House proposal and instructs the Executive Board and management of the RIPE NCC to implement the necessary changes."

The resolution was unanimously accepted.

The formal resolution:

"The General Meeting adopts the proposed new Standard Service Agreement/Terms and Conditions and instructs the Executive Board and management of the RIPE NCC to implement the necessary changes."

The resolution was accepted with no votes against and six abstentions.

8. Presentation on the Scoring Algorithm

Jochem de Ruig, RIPE NCC Chief Financial Officer, gave a presentation on the RIPE NCC Scoring Algorithm and Charging Scheme.

Jochem noted that the Charging Scheme has seemed to work better this year, and seems better understood than in previous years.

Jochem also mentioned that the RIPE NCC had received comments from members who felt it was unfair that they were charged over time for an ASN assignment.

Comment: Gert Doering responded on the issue of charging for AS Numbers over time. He noted that there had been no Address Policy Working Group response on this. He added that each AS Number handed out is a one-time effort for the RIPE NCC, but an endless burden on the routing system. He stated that this is a touchy issue and needs serious consideration.

Comment: Wilfried Woeber said that he agreed members' should pay, but asked whether they should pay the RIPE NCC. He added that he thought they should pay the RIPE NCC because the RIPE NCC provides a broad set of different services, and the distribution of AS Numbers and IP addresses is just one of these services, although it is a prominent one. He mentioned that the RIPE NCC Activity Plan would show all the other services that the RIPE NCC perform, such as root server clones. He stated that using this argument, he would strongly agree that the recipient of AS Numbers should contribute to the recurring operational cost of the RIPE NCC. He added, however, that the way this is expressed needs to be carefully considered.

Q: It was asked whether a breakdown for each LIR Charging Scheme score will be shown on portal?

A: Jochem replied that this was possible.

Comment: Rob Blokzijl stated that charging for AS Numbers is not a one off affair. He noted that by looking at the weekly analysis from Philip Smith, it is possible to see a whole growing bunch of AS numbers that cannot be traced in the system. He added that at some point, a clean up effort will be required by the RIRs just as was the case with the old IPv4 assignments. It is a misconception to think that once an AS Number is handed out, there is no administrative overhead. Maybe that should be clarified somewhere in a RIPE NCC document or on the RIPE NCC website.

Comment: Kurtis Lindqvist agreed that it was not a one-time affair to hand out an AS Number. He noted that an interesting aspect of charging LIRs a fee is that it acts as a cap to prevent a land rush on common resources. He added that the fact that they do provide a load on the global routing tables and global production networks for Internet traffic is a different topic. He stated that this is an economical decision between the owner of the AS Number and the upstream who decides to accept the AS Number.

He also noted that the idea of moving to a per prefix based charging mechanism has been discussed before. He added that it is up to an ISP to decide how they can get enough revenue to cover the cost for operating the service they are providing.

He stated that it was better to see the two issues separately. He mentioned that he didn't know whether the prevention of a landslide of requests is the best way of doing this.

He added that he didn't want to see the RIRs as the collective tax authorities for the Internet and taxing common resources to try to prevent growth or an explosion. He said that he thought that this would be a bad way forward.

Comment: Rob Blokzijl stated that it would be good to look at the costs to see the underlying reason for this small but continuous fee for an AS Number.

-- BREAK--

Meeting recommenced at 15:53

9. RIPE NCC Executive Board Elections
Kees noted that under the new RIPE NCC Articles of Association, Executive Board elections will always take place at the RIPE NCC General Meeting in May.

Kees explained the voting process.

Kees asked the candidates to briefly introduce themselves.

The three candidates were:

Andrea Borgato
Nigel Titley
János Zsakó

Voting Results

Seat 1:
Nigel Titley - 55
János Zsakó - 8
Andrea Borgato - 1
Nigel Titley was elected

Seat 2:
János Zsakó - 63
Andrea Borgato - 1
János Zsakó was elected

10. Close

Kees congratulated the elected board members.

He commented on the fact that 64 people voting showed a good interest.

He also noted that it was good to get members' feedback on the RIPE NCC Activity Plan.

Kees asked if there were any further comments.

There were none.

He thanked the RIPE NCC General Meeting attendees.

The Meeting was brought to a close at 16:30.