RIPE 13 Minutes

1. Opening

Rob Blokzijl welcomed the participants to the 13th RIPE meeting. Apologies were received from the following persons:

Dennis Russell
George Abe
Don Stikvoort
Hank Nussbacher
Mike Norris
Sylvain Langlois

Hans Nussbacher resigned as chairman of the mapping working group. Daniele Bovio has agreed to act as chairman.

1.1. Approval of the agenda

The agenda was approved.

1.2. Papers tabled

Agenda for the 13th RIPE meeting
RIPE Quarterly Report, Issue 2, September - draft
Overview of European connectivity
RIPE position paper
RIPE NCC Network Management Database leaflet - draft version 2
RIPE NCC Interactive Information Services leaflet - draft version 2
RIPE NCC Delegated Internet Registry leaflet - draft version 1
RIPE NCC IP allocation template from JNT
Relationship between the Research, Academic, Educational and Commercial Networks
Draft paper - draft-rekhter-ipaddress-guide-04.txt by Rekhter, Li and Gerich. Chapter on recommendations only.

1.3. Additions to the agenda under AOB

Joyce Reynolds wished to give a short presentation on the new IETF working groups in the User Services area.

Niall O'Reilly wished to make a short announcement concerning HEAnet.

Mikhail Popov presentation on the current state of networking in Russia was moved to Friday morning.

Logistics and organisational details for the meeting were handed to the RIPE vice-chairs for consideration, who reported back on Thursday 1st October.

2. Minutes of the last meeting

2.1. Approval of the minutes

The minutes from the 12th RIPE meeting were approved.

2.2. Review of the action list

Action: Ruediger Volk Francis Dupont
Collect DNS tools and make available to public via NCC Archives. Action to be reviewed during the DNS working group.

Action: Tony Bates and Marten Terpstra
Produce a document on experiences of running IP/IXI. Action closed because it has been overtaken by the EMPB proposal.

Action: Rob Blokzijl and Daniel Karrenberg
Write a RIPE section to the Internet Monthly Report. Action completed.

Action: Erik-Jan Bos
Produce a recommendations document on security issues. Prepare for next technical session. Both action items open. Technical sessions planned for 14th RIPE meeting.

Action: Francis Dupont and Milan Sterba
Produce a cookbook on DNS. First version ready at the next RIPE meeting. Input
on the contents of the document is requested. Action open. No progress. Action has been deferred until the publication of a book which is thought to be useful input.

Action: Daniel Karrenberg
Make a new distribution of the database tools available. Action completed.

Action: Daniel Karrenberg
Coordination of vendor presentations at the next RIPE technical session. Action open.

Action: Daniel Karrenberg
Send the address of the ISO subcommittee that handles ISO-3166 work. Action completed.

Action: Marten Terpstra
To store and make available to public DNS tools. Action completed.

Action: Marten Terpstra
Install mailing list on RIPE machines for those working groups who requested a list. Action completed.

Action: Marten Terpstra
To archive routing recommendations in NCC document store. Action completed.

Action: Marten Terpstra
Collect information regarding the Second Root Name Server. The relevant IETF working group will be contacted regarding global requirements. Ongoing and dependant upon the decisions reached in the DNS working group.

Action: Marten Terpstra
To evaluate Domain Debugging Tools. Action open. Two tools evaluated and ongoing.

Action: Hank Nussbacher and Don Stikvoort
Write a charter for the RIPE mapping working group. Action open and moved to Daniele Bovio.

Action: Bernhard Stockman
Distribute the draft RIPE statistics document to the ripe-org mailing list for further comments. Action closed. No progress.

Action: Ruediger Volk
Produce a document on methods for incremental updates of the RIPE database. Action has been completed. Document can be found in ripe/docs/ripe-draft/ripe-drafts-inc-update-v0.txt

Action: Jean-Michel Jouanigot
Send routing recommendations to RIPE for approval. Action completed.

Action: Jean-Michel Jouanigot
Make available NLC software via anonymous FTP (via NCC). Action open and progressing.

Action: Jean-Michel Jouanigot
Discussions regarding the Routing Policy Description Form. Discuss this with Jessica Yu. Action open.

Action: Milan Sterba and Geza Turchanyi
Evaluate and consider nature of information for NIDUS. Action open.

3. RIPE Position Paper (Rob Blokzijl)

Prior to the meeting, the RIPE position paper had been circulated. As such the paper is now considered to be a document which reflects consensus of opinion within the RIPE
community. The meeting thus agreed to the paper as is. The document currently in the RIPE document store:

/ripe/docs/ripe-draft

ripe-draft-position-v2.txt

will be given a document number and moved to:

/ripe/docs/ripe-docs

4. RIPE NCC (Daniel Karrenberg)

4.1. Status Report

The RIPE NCC status report was presented by Daniel Karrenberg. It was based on the September quarterly report, which was included as a document at the meeting. What follows is a summary of that document. It was noted that the report was in fact a draft version so that comments concerning the content of the report could be incorporated if received. Comments were invited and welcomed.

The status report was based on comparisons drawn between the status report given at the 12th RIPE meeting. Activities reported comprised the following.

4.1.1. The development of the NCC as the delegated registry for European IP requests

Since the beginning of September the NCC agreed to handle all requests for IP numbers from European organisations. Statistics were presented concerning the number and speed of response on requests. In response to an invitation by the NCC for local registries to identify themselves, the NCC is now able to forward a significant number of requests. It
was mentioned that it was the goal of the NCC to respond to all requests within 5 working days.

4.1.2. RIPE Database

The RIPE database software has been completely rewritten. The changes mean that the software is now:

totally configurable to local environments Extra objects can be added by editing the configuration files;
currently undergoing testing at 4 Beta sites;
senders of updates now receive personal confirmation messages including all objects;
the indexing of the software has been revised and the plan is to make it configurable.

4.1.3. New Whois Client

Using the RIPE Whois client it is now possible to query the RIPE database by default and use additional flags to query the US databases. The quotes are no longer necessary.The
new whois client can be found in /tools/ripe-whois.tar.Z

4.1.4. Global Exchange Format

There have been ongoing discussions to resolve the inconsistencies between the RIPE database and the GSI database with Mark Kosters. Schema discussions continue and progress will be reported.

4.1.5. DNS

The hostcount is published monthly and can be found in the RIPE document store in the subdirectory ripe/hostcount. The error files and output are also contained in the same
directory.

4.1.6. Document Store

The document store has been reorganised and made complete. Thanks were given to the RIPE chairman for his significant effort.

4.1.7. General

The RIPE NCC leaflets have been revised and version 2 of each leaflet has been drafted. Printing was subject to approval of the leaflets at the RIPE meeting.

Audiocast tests are ongoing. Those interested in taking part in the tests should contact the NCC.

It was pointed out to the audience that the statistical data presented in the Quarterly report were exclusive of the last week of September, in order that a draft of the report could be produced in time for the meeting.

4.2. Goals

The evaluation of the RIPE NCC status report was made by comparing the present with previous goals presented at the 12th RIPE meeting. In particular the following were noted:

the NCC Activity Plan now has a new document number after the document store update. The new number is ripe-35;
Work is progressing well with regard to the exchange formats between the RIPE, DDN NIC and Merit databases;
Network mapping is needed but so far no input has been received from the RIPE mapping working group;
The need for more European root severs will be investigated further;
More guidance is needed from the ripe community on the future direction of the statistics working group.

4.3. Future of the RIPE NCC

4.3.1. Organisational position

The RIPE organisational position paper has been distributed, which explains the RARE to RIPE NCC relationship. To repeat, RARE provides the organisational framework for the
RIPE NCC. This has been and continues to be a satisfactory situation. The suggestion however to change this to put the RIPE NCC under the jurisdiction of the OU was not considered appropriate because it is thought that the OU will be a service provider and it is vital that RIPE NCC remains an impartial and fair organisation.

At the RARE CoA in Bratislava on September 24-25 it was agreed and stated that RIPE is and should remain a separate body in its own right.

4.3.2. Budget

As the financial reporting of the RIPE NCC is formally to the RARE treasurer a full financial report could not be made. The present financing of the RIPE NCC will be published in the minutes of the RARE CoA meeting. It was noted however, that the RIPE NCC budget expenditure after the first 6 months of operation has been as expected. However,
to fulfil all of the goals outlined in the activity plan (document ripe-35) with equal priority, more staff may be needed.

4.3.3. Financing

At the RARE CoA it was agreed that a fairer model for the financing of the RIPE NCC should be agreed upon. Currently there are many organisations who are not contributing to the funding of the RIPE NCC and who utilise the services provided. Therefore it was recommended that all organisations currently contributing should pay a fairer share of the
overall budget, with those organisations who currently utilise the services of the RIPE NCC, making a contribution.

Current contributing RARE organisations have agreed to continue financing the RIPE NCC from April 1st 1993 until 31st December 1993.

In the discussions that followed the complexity of the problem was noted, specifically how do you determine a "fair" contribution; accounting procedures must be in place; can
you rely upon voluntary contributions? The financing problems of the German NIC were also noted. It was proposed to begin discussions of the financing of the RIPE NCC with
the establishment of a financing task model. Discussions were moved to the BOF session on Delegated Registries.

5. RIPE and RARE

5.1. Report from the RARE CoA (Rob Blokzijl)

A short written document in the form of a letter received from the Secretary-General of RARE on the outcome of the discussions with respect to the relationship between RARE
and RIPE was distributed as a meeting document and is also included below. To reiterate, the document stated that it was agreed that the existence of both RIPE and RARE within
Europe was useful and that each group would endeavour in its technical programs not to duplicate the work done by each other and the IETF.

-------------------------------------------

Dear Rob,

Enclosed please find the formulation of the CoA decision on the relation between RARE and RIPE, as approved by the REC:

RARE and RIPE are independent bodies
To prevent duplication of work the following has been agreed:
1. RARE will not set up an IP coordination group and will rely on RIPE for this function. RIPE will not set up a technical development programme and will rely on the RTC and IETF for this function.
2. To enable close cooperation on the technical level RIPE is invited to appoint a member of the RTC. The RIPE chairman is invited to the next meeting of RTC.

Could you please carry the message to the RIPE meeting and use your influence to have this agreement accepted by the RIPE.

Best regards

Tomaz

--------------------------------------------

5.2. The RARE Technical Program (Sven Tavfelin)

An outline of the function and purpose of the RARE Technical Program (RTC) was given. Briefly the RTC defines the technical program of RARE. The program is managed through the guidelines given by the RARE Executive Committee (REC).

Traditionally the technical activities of RARE have been OSI oriented, but this is changing so that much greater focus will be placed on general networking. There is a strong
desire by CoA, REC and the RTC to collaborate with RIPE and to avoid any duplication of effort. The methodology for this is to be discussed further but will start with the
suggestion that RIPE Chairman becomes a member of the RTC.

The need for both pragmatism and reality was stressed. Specifically: operational services must be the focus point; the workplan must reflect user needs; the piloting of new services is crucial; duplication of work is to be avoided with the recognition that there is no intention to compete with RIPE.

A short introduction to the Task Forces and the RARE Technical Reports (RTR's) was given.

An invitation to send comments concerning the RTC's was suggested.

5.2.1. RARE Working Groups (Tim Dixon)

An outline of the RARE working groups was presented. Prior to the meeting documents had been circulated describing the name of the working groups, the chairperson, the charter of the group and the main work items.

6. Global Internet Traffic Measurement (Torben Nielsen)

The proposal presented was to conduct a study to quantify Internet traffic on a global basis for a period of at least one month but preferably three, with cooperation and
involvement from the RIPE community.

Based on a study carried out at the University of Hawaii it was found that:

80 per cent of the addresses were resolvable
40 per cent of resolvable traffic both originated and was destined to non-US networks

When the period of measurement was increased, the above figures decreased. A one and half month period gave around 10 per cent transit traffic, whilst a 6 month period gave 4.32 percent. The goals of the project were identified as follows:

to determine the source and destination of traffic flows
to identify which services are being used and their duration of use
to determine whether global patterns of usage exist and the periodicity of such patterns
to determine a statistical distribution of traffic for the simulation of network operations

To effectively sample the traffic flows, the duration of the study was proposed for a period of at least one month but preferably 3 months. To date, the data yielded from traffic
studies has proved difficult to analyse due to the shortage of the time period (between 1 - 3 hours) hence the longer period of study is felt necessary.

The study requires people at strategic traffic flow points to participate in a global effort to gather statistics over a 1-3 month period, at both network and application layers. The software developed at the University of Hawaii will be made publicly available. It was observed that secondary storage of all the gathered raw data will be required, therefore it may be necessary to find funding for the necessary equipment.

7. Global Address Assignment (Daniel Karrenberg)

The paper tabled by Rekhter, Lee and Gerich on Global Address Assignments (Point 6 Recommendations) was circulated at the meeting to encourage discussion, so that a RIPE
position could be agreed upon. Thus a presentation was not given but a short statement was made explaining that the paper would be considered in the Delegated Registries BOF
session.

8. Delegated Registry Inside Europe (Daniel Karrenberg)

The need for coordination and alignment of procedures between the local and delegated registries inside Europe was introduced and it was noted that a special BOF session on
this topic was scheduled on the agenda for Thursday 1st October. Furthermore it was noted that at present there was no charge for this function and consideration during this
BOF session should be given to potential funding models.

9. Networking in Russia (M Popov)

This presentation was moved to Friday 2nd October and is reported under the Connectivity working group report.

10. EBONE presentations

10.1. Report from the ECCO meeting in Vienna (Bernhard Stockman)

10.1.1. EBONE Long Term Strategy

The ECCO meeting discussed the long term strategy of the EBONE. There are basically two functions the EBONE could provide, to be a neutral platform for interconnections among service providers and to be a pan-European IP backbone. It was agreed that both functions were needed today.

The EBONE has to evolve towards an open market situation and to be trustworthy in such an environment EBONE has to have:

a sound organization
a proper financing
a neutral position among service providers

A strategy document will be produced before the end of 1992 where these issues will be described and to act as input to a revised MoU.

10.1.2. EBONE Financial model

The ECCO decided that based on a proposal from Dennis Jennings the expenditures of EBONE shall include:

The backbone lines and sites
The US connectivity
75 percent of regional connections

The expenditures will be recovered using a weighted system depending on connected bandwidth.

Based on the agreed financial model most EBONE members signed on for current or increased EBONE connectivity. With this amount of connectivity to the EBONE the cost for a 64 Kbps connection will be around 50 kECU per year.

Many new organizations have shown interest in becoming EBONE members such as Infonet, Alternet, US SPRINT and ANS all of whom have signed the EBONE MoU.

10.1.3. EBONE Organization

The today loose EBONE organization will not be sufficient for a long term EBONE. There is a need to more clearly define roles of the today existing EBONE bodies which are:

ECCO, The EBONE Consortium of Contributing Organizations
EMC, The EBONE Management Committee
EAT, The EBONE Action Team
EOT, The EBONE Operations Team

The EMC shall in the future consist of 5 - 10 members which are nominated by the EBONE members. At the meeting 11 participants volunteered to be in the EMC. The final compo-
sition will be voted on. Voting rights is given only to RBS sites.

There is a need for an EBONE Manager. Frode Greisen volunteered for this position which was accepted by the meeting. Frode will start to work 20 percent as EBONE manager during 1992 and with 50 percent during 1993.

EAT will continue to consist of representatives from the EBONE members and have the engineering responsibility of the EBONE. EOT will continue to consist of the EBONE NOC staff plus representatives from the EBS sites.

A smaller group will overlook the current EBONE organization and have a proposal ready before the end of 1992.

10.1.4. Relations to a OU

According to the MoU for EBONE-92 a proposal for a takeover of the EBONE by the OU was sent to the OU Steering Committee. There was no formal response from the OU. The possibility of EBONE existing within a proposed OU has to be reexamined at a later stage if necessary. Like the RIPE NCC, EBONE has to be neutral and not liaise with one of many service providers to continue to be trustworthy.

10.1.5. Conclusion of the ECCO Vienna meeting

EBONE will be continued at least during 1993.
The strategic direction has to be worked out.
A fair cost distribution has to be defined.
The US connectivity will be included in the EBONE.
Assurance that governmental resources are not subsidizing commercial enterprise has to be guaranteed.

10.2. EBONE Technical presentation (Peter Lothberg)

10.2.1. What is EBONE?

EBONE is an Internet i.e. it is a collection of networks. The technology does not provide all the magic needed for policy implementation. It is a framework for cooperation. EBONE tries to enhance fault management EBONE is a moving target where any member can influence events.

A technical proposal produced during the autumn 1991 outlined most of the things now being implemented. The EBS/RBS concept was invented by EBONE. Use of only commercial available routers. Distributed Management. Optional elements in the specification become needed.

Coordination and education are a challenge. EAT was invented in Geneva.

10.2.2. EBONE-92

Re-implementation of European routing. Pilots BGP-3 pilots in Stockholm February 1992. Stockholm goes BGP-3 in March. ICMnet joined. Later this summer Amsterdam. London
went BGP from day one. NIKEF - JANET closed a loop via IXI. CERN joined later and Montpellier joined last but they also closed the loop.

In US the backbone has policy which creates problems so EBONE made the inverse and put poli- cies in the regions.

Layer 2 connections: HDLC, PPP, FR, Ethernet, FDDI
Routing protocols: EGP, BGP, IDRP and IS-IS
Management protocol: SNMP
Network layer protocols: RFC IP and CLNP
Fault management: Trouble Ticket system being developed at the NOC

11. EMPB presentation (Svend Moller-Nielsen)

11.1. Presentation of the topology

Backbone for the European R&D

2 Mbps multiprotocol
Service guarantees
24x7 network management
One-stop shopping
full European connectivity
Support for X.25, IP and CNLP

Access:

HDLC
PPP
X.25
FR
Ethernet

Routing

Static and EGP now
BGP-3 and GP-4 is planned

11.2. Other

No connectivity to the non-European Internet is planned in the foreseeable future.

Non European connectivity is NOT included in the charges to customers therefore an extra payment will be required for those requiring non-European connectivity.

12. Audio Conferencing (Daniel Karrenberg)

The proposal was made to establish a Multicast backbone for Europe (MBONE). Reference was made to the special BOF session organised on this topic. All those interested were
invited to attend.

13. Reports from the Working Groups

Reports from the working group sessions

13.1. Relationship between Academic & Research networks and Commercial networks

Andreas Schachtner presented the report for the working group. Glenn Kowack sent his apologies for not being able to deliver the presentation himself.

It was noted that this was the third time that this working group has convened.

13.1.1. Objectives

The following was agreed by the group:

the group mission is accepted
to continue the workplan (outlined in a paper circulated at the meeting)
the nature of the problem is 3 dimensional, specifically there exists:
- a problem dimension which refers to the need to review existing problems
- a transformation dimension which refers to the need to examine alternative approaches
- a forward looking dimension which refers to the need to consider future problems

13.1.2. Group Tasks

To realise the above objectives, the following tasks were identified:

most of the terms of reference need clarification;
major concern in the area of accountability with respect to the deliverability of user services. The suggestion was made to look at how this is achieved within other industries. For example, within the airline industry;
consideration of other network "islands" could be an area for investigation in the future.

13.1.3. Conclusion

No volunteers for the work tasks outlined above came forward. As a minimum it was noted that these issues should be catalogued to facilitate ongoing discussions.

Action: Glenn Kowack investigate and catalogue points raised under Item 13.1.2 Group tasks.

13.2. Network Information Discovery and User Services (Nandor Horvath)

13.2.1. New User Services Working Groups

Joyce Reynolds made a presentation on the new IETF working groups in the area of User Services. This presentation was also made to the wider audience, so is reported in full
under item 16 of the minutes under Any Other Business (AOB).

13.2.2. Network Information

Two ideas were discussed in the Network Information Discovery and User Services (NIDUS) working group on the related themes of classifying network information organisations and services across Europe, as described below.

It was observed there is already a considerable amount of resource information available, held for example in the RIPE NCC Interactive Information Server. There was a suggestion
to survey the information available there and to include back pointers to information in this area stored by for example the RARE-ISUS working group.

Action: Geza Turchanyi and Nandor Horvath Agreed to work on the survey of the availability of existing information with respect to the RIPE document store.

The second suggestion was to define a new RIPE database object for resource information, to specify information on resource type, access methods and form of the data.

With regard to the second idea, concern was expressed over the difficulty in structuring such information and whether as a result the RIPE database would be suitable. Some
liaison was required with the RIPE Database working group in this matter. It was agreed that as a preliminary the kind of information required should be analysed, enabling a
refinement of the original idea.

Action: Milan Sterba Refine proposal for a new RIPE database object for resource information, to specify information on resource type, access methods and form of the data. Circulate proposal to the new mailing list for vote.

13.3. DNS issues (Francis Dupont)

13.3.1. Working plan for the RARE-NAP WG

The RARE-NAP WG agenda is not yet available then this is only a proposal.

The DNS working group proposed the following work items for discussion:

Investigating the need for more root name servers in Europe. Some data has been collected (thanks to NORDUnet) but it was concluded that further study was in fact needed. Several proposals have been received (most recent one from SWITCH). It was agreed that no additional root name servers would be implemented until further study had been completed. Robert Elz has been proposed as a fake root name server expert
(pitfalls learned by the hard way). Action: Bernhard Stockman - Tell Matti Rehndal to contact Marten Terpstra on issue of secondary name servers in Europe.
global DNS coordination in Europe (for instance secondary name service for top level domains)
DNS cookbook (dependant on publication of a book thought to contain useful information)
DNS software (with known bugs) and debugging tools. No new version of the DNS BIND software is currently available. Alpha testing site of the new code has been selected and the code will be available shortly.
Network Time Protocol (NTP)
- it is an IP service and in the scope of RARE-NAP WG
- the worldwide coordination done by Dave Mills <Mills@UDEL.EDU>. Software and the list of servers are available by anonymous FTP on louise.udel.edu in pub/ntp
  directory. News items are in the comp.protocols.time.ntp news group.
- NTP servers should be set up at the same time as DNS Servers
- a good service would be useful for statistics, security etc.

13.3.2. Individual/private person domains: where to put them?

already studied during the 11th RIPE meeting (14.5.1 in the minutes) no new ideas were forthcoming on this
the real problem is not how to split the name tree, but how to delegate these parts of the tree
this delegation problem is a management problem but can become a financial problem (related to the open question: how to finance NIC services?)

13.3.3. Any Other Business

Full reference for the book referred to above is "DNS and BIND" by Cricket Liu and Paul Albitz scheduled for publication during October 92 by O'Reilly and Associates. It was
noted that BIND 4.9 (the next version) is not yet available.

13.4. RIPE Database (Wilfried Woeber)

The proposed structure for the working group activity is to consider the following issues:

organisational and legal issues
operational issues
technical issues

13.4.1. Organisational and legal issues

the ownership and "acceptable use" of the database was considered. It was agreed to propose a "lightweight" solution and to prepare a formal recommendation for input to
RARE. Action: Daniel Karrenberg and Wilfried Woeber prepare a formal recommendation for input to RARE on a the ownership and "acceptable use" of the database".
Review of RIPE document ripe-13 would be necessary in the near future.
X.400/X.500/MHS liaison would include the RTC
Network Management Database leaflet version 2 was approved with 2 modifications.

13.4.2. Operational Issues

Coordination discussions with US counterparts are ongoing. Action: Marten Terpstra Changes in the database format. Coordination discussions with US counterparts are ongoing.
To examine "non standard" use of fields. Action: Jean-Michel Jouanigot and Marten Terpstra examine "non standard" use of fields. Further discussions are necessary.

13.4.3. Technical Issues

Autonomous System Objects. Action: Daniel Karrenberg to circulate new draft object
definition for Autonomous System objects to the mailing list (and Ruediger Volk).
To include the operational contact attribute in all object definitions besides persons. If there is widespread use of this attribute, it is agreed to consider the creation of a
NOC object at a later stage. Action: NCC. To include the operational contact attribute
in all object definitions besides persons
Modification for the network number object with respect to supernetting so that block registration of networks are now supported. This has been done.
Query and discussion regarding the usefulness of the Domain Object. It was agreed to keep the Domain Object for MX domains as it was considered the only way to represent the information required.
General purpose extensions to the database. Action: Antonio Blasco Bonito To make a proposal on how to do general purpose extensions to the database in a general manner.
GSI/Merit/RIPE NCC exchange format discussions. Action: Marten Terpstra To progress GSI/Merit/RIPE NCC exchange format discussions.
Routing object, routing privilege update. It was agreed that this should be done with input from the routing working group proposal on how to update the boundary privilege and gateway attributes. Action: NCC Routing object, routing privilege update.
Link item. Although not discussed due to insufficient time, the proposal is revived. Action: Milan Sterba To circulate Link item proposal and circulate to new db-wg mailing list.
Resource object. Also not discussed due to lack of time but input was requested by Milan Sterba from the rest of the working group, who would draft proposal and circulate to the new db-wg list. Action: Milan Sterba To work on draft proposal concerning the resource object and to circulate to the db-wg mailing list.
How to delete an object. Action: Daniel Karrenberg Make a proposal on how to delete
an object from the database.

13.4.4. Conclusions

There was a proposal to establish a specific mailing list with respect to the technical work issues of the Database working group. Notification of the operation of the list would be announced to the ripe-list.

Action: Daniel Karrenberg/Marten Terpstra. To announce operation of db-wg group mailing list on the ripe-list.

13.5. IP-Routing in Europe (Jean-Michel Jouanigot)

There were more than 40 attendees at this working group session which lasted one and a half hours. There were 3 main topics for consideration:

Policy based routing in RIPE
EBONE routing
Routing policy decisions form with respect to BGP and the IETF

13.5.1. Policy Based routing in RIPE

The following topics were discussed:

13.5.1.1. Jean Michel Jouanigot presented a list of compilers that

can produce aggregated access lists
give support to extend to supernetting
are in production at CERN.

13.5.1.2. Proposal of pilot

of routing centres defined for privileges
for the information to be stored in the RIPE database
ILAN, IN2P3, Switch, CERN already use the extensions for routing. Thanks are extended to these organisations, whilst an invitation was extended to other organisations to use the new routing extensions.

13.5.1.3. Policy based routing tag collection

RIPE NCC needs advice on how to collect this information
a draft document will be sent to the ripe-list
it was agreed to collect and implement in the RIPE database routing tags.
information supplied by the routing centre will only be used for routing purposes. The definition of a routing centre will be explored within the ongoing discussions between the members of the group.
With regard to the procedures for collecting the information it was stated that only the guard- ians of the routing centre were allowed access to the information stored.
In answer to a question from the audience PTT Telecom reported that they will use the RIPE database for external routing with respect to the EMPB.

13.5.2. EBONE Routing

EBS to RBS connection reflects the common approach
All organisations using the T1 link for US connectivity will get a back up through NORDUnet.
document on the use of the RIPE database in EBONE routing has been produced and distributed to the EOT and the working group. The document title is "Use of RIPE policy based routing in EBONE" In the document it is explained how EBONE can be viewed as one routing centre. The contents of the document were agreed and the RIPE-wg will make a proposal to EBONE based on the document.

13.5.3. Routing Policy decisions form

The EBONE system will filter between EBS/RBS. A good way of describing this is by using Jessica Yu's proposed policy description form.

13.6. Audiocast (Daniel Karrenberg)

Hans Eriksson participated at this meeting and is one of the pioneers in this area. The WG discussions centred around the following:

13.6.1. How to set up an MBONE in Europe

Problem to have a physical infrastructure and on top of that a multicast infrastructure which in essence are packet routers dedicated to route multicast with its own routing
protocol.
The multicast topology has to be aligned with the physical infrastructure to avoid excessive use of lines.

It is necessary to find volunteers near strategic points in the physical infrastructure. EBONE EBS sites are covered.

A group of volunteers named MBONE-EU will be formed. For those interested in participate in this group get information and software from ftp.ripe.net in tools/mbone Frequently Asked Question list (FAQ-list) exists. Find a strategically positioned neighbour if you want to join. You can use the mailing list below if you wish to do so:

Mailing list: mbone-eu@sics.se

It was stressed by all involved that this multicasting should not be considered a production service but rather an experimental one.

Also regulatory issues of carrying voice were raised briefly.

Those present who had researched the issue stated that one is probably safe as long as no con- nection to the public telephone network is made. Local conditions can vary.

The multicast pilot from this RIPE meeting was not successful due to insufficient local line capacity.

13.7. Global Internet Traffic Measurement (Torben Nielsen)

Due to room scheduling problems There was no meeting of this group. Decisions were taken in the plenary session (see below).

13.8. Delegated IP Registry Coordination (Daniel Karrenberg)

13.8.1. BOF session agenda

review European activity over the last 3 months
propose the development of a common European template and procedures
consider the Rekhter, Li and Gerich draft with the aim of formulating a European consensus and input.
brainstorm on funding models for the IP Registry system

13.8.2. Decisions and action points agreed

It was agreed to propose to make the subject of delegated IP registry coordination a Ripe-wg and that Daniel Karrenberg chair the WG. This was later agree by the plenary.
It was agreed to set up a mailing list. Action: NCC Set up db-wg@ripe.net mailing list.
To create a common explanatory document for use throughout Europe. Bob Day volunteered to draft the initial document to initiate discussions. Action: Bob Day Circulate draft of an explanatory document about IP number registration.
to create a common template for collecting the details of specific requests. Action: Daniel Karrenberg Circulate a draft of a common IP number registration template. Action: Bob Day and Daniel Karrenberg Align the common explanatory document about IP number registration and the common template.
to exchange and document criteria for evaluating applications especially with respect to class B requests.
to initiate a quick link to the new US Internet Registry once it has become operational. Action: Joyce Reynolds Keep RIPE informed about developments around the new US NIC (NSF NIS contract award).

Registry system of funding was not discussed due to time constraints and it was resolved to continue the discussion over the mailing list.

13.8.3. Discussed the recommendations of part of the Rekhter, Li and Gerich draft (point 6).

The attendees agreed that excellent work had been done and the document was of a very high standard. Some concerns were raised that the address allocation guidelines could be
perceived as hard and fast rules rather than guidelines. Also the guidelines should be revised at a later stage in the light of experience. Some reservations were felt about
the class B addresses being retained by the Internet Registry: it was resolved to agree to this for the present, with a view to further evaluation in the light of experience. To conclude, the consensus of opinion as expressed in the BOF was endorsed in the plenary session as representative of the RIPE opinion.

Action: Daniel Karrenberg prepare a document to reflect the RIPE position and circulate it on the ripe list.

It was observed that it may be necessary to reserve address space to be used for networks which are unlikely to ever require connectivity to the Internet. The case of supermarkets connecting their stores using tcp-ip to connect to their central cash centre as an example. Concern was expressed that this would otherwise unneccessarily lessen
the amount of global address space available. Volunteers were asked to come forward to draft a future RFC on this problem.

13.9. Report from the German EBS meeting (Stephan Fassbender)

The German EBS meeting made review of IP activities in Germany. The GMD proposal for an EBS and two 256 lines financed by GMD was presented. EAT has accepted this as this
will improve Internet connectivity to Germany.

Good set of agreements between most IP nets in Germany which will continue with this effort.

13.10. European connectivity (Milan Sterba)

13.10.1. Short revision of the CEE report (version 5)

Hungary is still waiting for an upgrade of the existing line between Budapest and Linz to 64 bit/s. There seems to be some technical problems, which could be solved by the end of
this year

The Warsaw-Vienna terrestrial IP line is now operational at 64 bit

Prague-Linz line has been upgraded to 64 bit/s and Bratislava-Vienna should be upgraded by the end of 1992

Several IP lines interconnect now different network clouds in the Moskow area to DESY

Germany, DNet Denmark, Alternet USA. None of these lines has NSF connected status yet.

The EARN line from Moskow has been downgraded to a dial-up link to Stockholm.

Action: Milan Sterba Produce CEEC report version 5.

13.10.2. Situation with the dual-homed RBS in Austria

By the end of october 1992 both Vienna-CERN (256 kbit/s) and Linz-Amsterdam (128 kbit/s) should be operational. Negotiations are going on about setting up an EBS in Austria.

13.10.3. Ebone and CEE countries

The expected tariffs and other Ebone connectivity aspects have been briefly explained by Bernhard Stockman and Peter Lothberg.

13.10.4. Cheap IP solutions

Peter Lothberg announced a cheap IP solution for a PC router which is able to communicate with a cisco at 64 kbit/s. Info can be obtained by ftp from tftp.ebone.net
(directory./cheap)

At the next RIPE meeting in Prague there will be a presentation of cheap IP solutions implemented in the framework of the joint franco-czechoslovak project COPERNICUS.

13.10.5. EMPB and CEE countries

Despite the strong commitment of RARE at JENC3 in Innsbruck to contribute to a better coordina- tion of network infrastructure building in CEE countries, EMPB lines have now been ordered between Amsterdam-Prague-Budapest-Bern and Amsterdam-Aarhus-Warsaw-Bern as the part of the EMPB project financed by the PHARE project. The setting up of these lines has been very poorly (if at all) coordinated with networking organisations in CEEC and never with RIPE. This lack of coordination will have negative impact on the possibilities of integration of these services to the global network and results in financial waste. PTT Telecom is now, after the lines have been ordered, willing to coordinate.

13.11. Networking in Russia (M Popov)

Misha Popov gave a presentation on the current state of networking in Russia, with respect to both the technical developments and the organisational changes that have
occurred since the last RIPE meeting. From the 5th October 1992, Russia will have improved connectivity from 9.6 Kbps to 64 k to DATEX-P in Germany.

14. Coordination of RARE and RIPE technical programs - decision

During discussions, the following points were agreed upon:

the invitation by RARE to RIPE to take an active role in the RTC is a valuable one and will be evaluated.
both programs cover wide fields of work.
careful attention will be paid to potential areas of overlap so that in principle they do not occur. Careful evaluation of the programs of both RARE and RIPE is therefore
needed.
cross membership of both programs is useful and is currently ongoing, but this cross membership should be formalised.
RARE and RIPE publications should be easily available - currently the RARE document store is shadowed onto the RIPE information server. This should be investigated further.

The next meeting of the RTC is in Pisa on November 3-5th. It was agreed that Rob Blokzijl should attend to represent RIPE.

15. Global Internet Traffic Measurement (Torben Nielsen) - decision

Torben Nielsen asked for volunteers for people to take part in his proposed study of Internet traffic. The target start date would be 1st January 1993 and the study would run for at least one month. Torben announced that he would create a mailing list for those interested. Details of the list would be sent to the ripe-list. The immediate tasks were identified as follows:

identify sensible points for measurement
seek permission of the owners of the environments
make an assessment of the necessary resources and manpower to undertake the study
appoint a coordinator
initiate discussions on access to the data collected

Action: Torben Nielsen Make slides of the Traffic Measurement presentation available in the RIPE document store.

The NCC offered to coordinate this in Europe. Daniele Bovio and Oliver Martin volunteered to help seek agreement for access to measurement points.

Action: NCC To keep in touch with Torben and disseminate information within RIPE as the measurement project continues.

16. Date, place and time of next meeting

The next meeting is to be held in Prague on January 25-27. Audiocast is intended but may not be possible if the local infrastructure cannot support it. The technical demonstrations are not on the agenda at present, but if volunteers come forward to organise them, they can be included into the usual 3 day RIPE meeting. The location for the 15th RIPE
meeting was proposed and agreed upon Amsterdam for 27-29th April 1993. An invitation has been received for a RIPE meeting to be held in Lisbon. A date was suggested - Janu-
ary 1994.

17. A.O.B.

17.1. Request from the EAT - Peter Lothberg

Request for groups willing to pilot OSPF and Dual IS-IS as IGP for EBONE. Please report to Jean-Michel Jouanigot. EBONE are interested in hearing from those who have any
experience with OSPF and Dual IS-IS.

17.2. EBONE skipper

Peter Lothberg has signed a contract accepting the position of EBONE skipper.

17.3. Pisa

Daniele Bovio announced that late registration for the Pisa meeting on November 3-5 would now be cheaper due to exchange rate fluctuations.

17.4. RIPE NCC promotional leaflets

The revised RIPE NCC leaflets on "Interactive Information Server" and the "Network Management Database" were approved subject to minor modifications.

17.5. Mapping

Prior to the meeting Hans Nussbacher resigned as chairman of the Mapping Group. Daniele Bovio accepted an invitation to become the new chairman of the group. However, the mapping group did not formally convene at this meeting. Instead Daniele Bovio presented his thoughts on the possible future direction of work for the group. He considered the following tasks as important and immediate:

to consider whether the mapping group was in fact needed
to consider what the goals of the group and the workplan should be and the best way to achieve these goals.

Action: Daniele Bovio prepare a document for consideration at the next RIPE meeting, but a message will also be sent to the Ripe-list asking for input on this activity.

17.6. The User Services Area (Joyce Reynolds)

A paper giving summary of the work of the IETF working groups in the User Services Area was distributed to those who attended the NIDUS working group and was available to
members of the audience who were interested. Also available were copies of the NISI-wg "NIC template" Those who did not receive the information can do so by contacting Joyce Reynolds.

A presentation was given by Joyce to the new working groups in this area. The four new working groups are:

17.6.1. Integration, Internet Information Resources (IIIR)

IIIR is chartered to facilitate interoperability between Internet Information Services and to develop, specify, and align protocols designed to integrate the plethora of Internet information services (WAIS, archie, Prospero, etc.) into a single "virtually unified information service.

17.6.2. Network Information Retrieval (NIR)

This working group is chartered to increase the useful base of information about networked information retrieval tools, their developers, interested organisations, and other
activities that relate to the production, dissemination, and support of NIR tools, NIR is a cooperative effort of the IETF, RARE and CNI.

17.6.3. Universal Resource Identifiers (URI)

URI is chartered to define a set of standards for the encoding of system independent Resource Location and Identification information for the use of Internet information
services.

17.6.4. Whois and Network Information Lookup Service (WNILS)

The purpose of WNILS is to expand and define the standard for WHOIS services, to resolve issues associated with he variations in access, and to promote a consistent and
predictable service across the network.

The new working groups have a common architecture and will work together to eliminate redundancy.

17.7. HEAnet (Niall O'Reilly)

A HEAnet NIC will be formed, employing one person initially. Thanks were expressed to the RIPE community for their valuable support.

18. Closing

Rob Blokzijl thanked the participants, with special thanks to the local organiser Philippe-Andre Prindeville. The 13th RIPE meeting was declared closed.

Open Actions

The open action list below is sorted by the first name of the primary responsible person as this is what our tools permit us to do easily and automagically.

Action: Antonio Blasco Bonito To make a proposal on how to do general purpose extensions to the database in a general manner.

Action: Bernhard Stockman - Tell Matti Rehndal to contact Marten Terpstra on issue of secondary name servers in Europe.

Action: Bob Day and Daniel Karrenberg Align the common explanatory document about IP number registration and the common template.

Action: Bob Day Circulate draft of an explanatory document about IP number registration.

Action: Daniel Karrenberg prepare a document to reflect the RIPE position and circulate it on the ripe list.

Action: Daniel Karrenberg Circulate a draft of a common IP number registration template.

Action: Daniel Karrenberg and Wilfried Woeber prepare a formal recommendation for input to RARE on a the ownership and "acceptable use of the database".

Action: Daniel Karrenberg to circulate new draft object definition for Autonomous System objects to the mailing list (and Ruediger Volk).

Action: Daniel Karrenberg Coordination of vendor presentations at the next RIPE technical session.

Action: Daniel Karrenberg Make a proposal on how to delete an object from the database.

Action: Daniel Karrenberg/Marten Terpstra. To announce operation of db-wg group mailing list on the ripe-list.

Action: Daniele Bovio prepare a document for consideration at the next RIPE meeting, but a message will also be sent to the Ripe-list asking for input on this activity.

Action: Erik-Jan Bos: Produce a recommendations document on security issues. Prepare for next technical session.

Action: Francis Dupont and Milan Sterba: Produce a cookbook on DNS. First version ready at the next RIPE meeting. Input on the contents of the document is requested.

Action: Geza Turchanyi and Nandor Horvath Agreed to work on the survey of the availability of existing information with respect to the RIPE document store.

Action: Glenn Kowack investigate and catalogue points raised under Item

Action: Hank Nussbacher and Don Stikvoort: Write a charter for the RIPE mapping working group.

Action: Jean-Michel Jouanigot and Marten Terpstra examine "non standard" use of fields. Further discussions are necessary.

Action: Jean-Michel Jouanigot Discussions regarding the Routing Policy Description Form. Discuss this with Jessica Yu.

Action: Jean-Michel Jouanigot Make available NLC software via anonymous FTP (via NCC).

Action: Joyce Reynolds Keep RIPE informed about developments around the new US NIC (NSF NIS contract award).

Action: Marten Terpstra Changes in the database format. Coordination discussions with US counterparts are ongoing.

Action: Marten Terpstra Collect information regarding the Second Root Name Server. The relevant IETF working group will be contacted regarding global requirements.

Action: Marten Terpstra To evaluate Domain Debugging Tools.

Action: Marten Terpstra To progress GSI/Merit/RIPE NCC exchange format discussions

Action: Milan Sterba and Geza Turchanyi: Evaluate and consider nature of information for NIDUS.

Action: Milan Sterba To work on draft proposal concerning the resource object and to circulate to the db-wg mailing list.

Action: Milan Sterba Produce CEEC report version 5.

Action: Milan Sterba To circulate Link item proposal and circulate to new db-wg mailing list.

Action: NCC Routing object, routing privilege update.

Action: NCC Set up db-wg@ripe.net mailing list.

Action: NCC To keep in touch with Torben and disseminate information within RIPE as the measurement project continues.

Action: NCC. To include the operational contact attribute in all object definitions besides persons

Action: Ruediger Volk Francis Dupont Collect DNS tools and make available to public via NCC Archives

Action: Torben Nielsen Make slides of the Traffic Measurement presentation available in the RIPE document store.