[atlas] RIPE Atlas SMTP Measurement

Hi everyone,

Great that this request sparked a good discussion on the merits of a measurement, as well as its potential impact on servers around the world. Good to see this!

So I’m going to do a quick recap here, hoping that I capture the intent and the concerns correctly. Please correct me if I err.

The intent of the measurement would be to validate whether an SMTP server is:
reachable
responsive
capable of secured transmissions

The concern is that such a check would trigger one of a variety of anti spam measures in place around the world, and/or cause undue traffic to SMTP server operators.

With this in mind, I am wondering: 
Are we monitoring the Internet or monitoring a service using the proposed SMTP measurement? 
Can we achieve the first 2 items of this measurement by doing a TCP traceroute on port 25?
Does the SSL measurement cover the intended use cases?
 Is it worth exploring STARTTLS support as an extension and what would the implications be?

Have a good weekend!

Best regards,

Michel

> On 21 Sep 2022, at 00:11, Avamander <avamander at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Making arguments based upon extreme cases, assumptions, or potential-for-collateral-damage is not scientific. "I know one that even [...]" Anecdotal  evidence isn't scientific.
> 
> From the perspective of your previous sentences that's kinda humorous. "To avoid unnecessary costs incurred from disruption of service, excessive traffic, annoyances using up *my* time, and countless other reasonable rationale from *my* point of view." Because sure, a few (hypothetical RIPE probe) connections are exactly that, zero exaggeration, right?
> 
> In the end such fail2ban-fueled (or similar) behaviour I initially addressed, is exactly a non-scientific extreme-case assumption-based approach. There are better and even more standard ways. 
> 
> Crutch solutions out in the wild shouldn't be a showstopper for measuring the ecosystem. (That is already quite neglected)
> 
> > What _objective_ risk/benefit analysis are you basing your opinions upon?
> 
> And you? What's the implication here about systems being as trigger-happy as previously described?
> 
> Because sure, at some point rate limits make total sense, but certainly not at the point where it would ban any potential RIPE probes.
> 
> >  Are you a systems administrator?
> 
> Let's not get into such measuring contests, even if it is the RIPE Atlas mailing list.
> 
> On Tue, Sep 20, 2022 at 11:42 PM Paul Theodoropoulos via ripe-atlas <ripe-atlas at ripe.net <mailto:ripe-atlas at ripe.net>> wrote:
> On 9/20/2022 10:45 AM, Avamander wrote:
>> Great to hear it works for you, but the potential unfortunate collateral from such a blanket action is not really RIPE Atlas' problem. There are more fine-grained methods against bruteforce attempts and open relay probes, than triggering on a few connections.
> What _objective_ risk/benefit analysis are you basing your opinions upon? Are you a systems administrator? My responsibility is to avoid unnecessary costs incurred from disruption of service, excessive traffic, annoyances using up *my* time, and countless other reasonable rationale from *my* point of view.  
> 
> You suggest that it is "not really RIPE Atlas' problem". That's very true. And it is not really my problem if I bounce yoinky, pointless probes of my server, and ruthlessly block them from contacting my server ever again. My server, my choice, my wallet, nobody's business but my own.
>> Some webmasters ban IP's for simply visiting a domain, I know one that even dispatches an email to your ISP's abuse@ address upon visit. Should RIPE Atlas probes then not probe any HTTP servers? The answer is obviously no, they shouldn't care.
> Making arguments based upon extreme cases, assumptions, or potential-for-collateral-damage is not scientific. "I know one that even [...]" Anecdotal  evidence isn't scientific.
> 
> Note, I run a probe myself. I don't block any RIPE Atlas traffic on my separate servers hosted on AWS, Oracle, and GCE. 
> 
> -- 
> Paul Theodoropoulos
> anastrophe.com <https://www.anastrophe.com/>-- 
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