<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Hi everyone,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Great that this request sparked a good discussion on the merits of a measurement, as well as its potential impact on servers around the world. Good to see this!</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">So I’m going to do a quick recap here, hoping that I capture the intent and the concerns correctly. Please correct me if I err.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The intent of the measurement would be to validate whether an SMTP server is:</div><div class=""><ul class="MailOutline"><li class="">reachable</li><li class="">responsive</li><li class="">capable of secured transmissions</li></ul><div class=""><br class=""></div></div><div class="">The concern is that such a check would trigger one of a variety of anti spam measures in place around the world, and/or cause undue traffic to SMTP server operators.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">With this in mind, I am wondering: </div><div class=""><ul class="MailOutline"><li class="">Are we monitoring the Internet or monitoring a service using the proposed SMTP measurement? </li><li class="">Can we achieve the first 2 items of this measurement by doing a TCP traceroute on port 25?</li><li class="">Does the SSL measurement cover the intended use cases?</li><ul class=""><li class=""> Is it worth exploring STARTTLS support as an extension and what would the implications be?</li></ul></ul><div class=""><br class=""></div></div><div class="">Have a good weekend!</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Best regards,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Michel</div><div class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 21 Sep 2022, at 00:11, Avamander <<a href="mailto:avamander@gmail.com" class="">avamander@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">> Making arguments based upon extreme cases, assumptions, or potential-for-collateral-damage is not scientific. "I know one that even [...]" Anecdotal evidence isn't scientific.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">From the perspective of your previous sentences that's kinda humorous. "To avoid unnecessary costs incurred from disruption of service, excessive traffic, annoyances using up *my* time, and countless other reasonable rationale from *my* point of view." Because sure, a few (hypothetical RIPE probe) connections are exactly that, zero exaggeration, right?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">In the end such fail2ban-fueled (or similar) behaviour I initially addressed, is exactly a non-scientific extreme-case assumption-based approach. There are better and even more standard ways. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Crutch solutions out in the wild shouldn't be a showstopper for measuring the ecosystem. (That is already quite neglected)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">> What _objective_ risk/benefit analysis are you basing your opinions upon?<br class=""><br class="">And you? What's the implication here about systems being as trigger-happy as previously described?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Because sure, at some point rate limits make total sense, but certainly not at the point where it would ban any potential RIPE probes.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">> Are you a systems administrator?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Let's not get into such measuring contests, even if it is the RIPE Atlas mailing list.</div></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Sep 20, 2022 at 11:42 PM Paul Theodoropoulos via ripe-atlas <<a href="mailto:ripe-atlas@ripe.net" class="">ripe-atlas@ripe.net</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div class="">
On 9/20/2022 10:45 AM, Avamander wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Great to hear it works for you, but the potential
unfortunate collateral from such a blanket action is not really
RIPE Atlas' problem. There are more fine-grained methods against
bruteforce attempts and open relay probes, than triggering on a
few connections.</div>
</blockquote>
What _objective_ risk/benefit analysis are you basing your opinions
upon? Are you a systems administrator? My responsibility is to avoid
unnecessary costs incurred from disruption of service, excessive
traffic, annoyances using up *my* time, and countless other
reasonable rationale from *my* point of view. <br class="">
<br class="">
You suggest that it is "not really RIPE Atlas' problem". That's very
true. And it is not really my problem if I bounce yoinky, pointless
probes of my server, and ruthlessly block them from contacting my
server ever again. My server, my choice, my wallet, nobody's
business but my own.<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">Some webmasters ban IP's for simply visiting a domain, I
know one that even dispatches an email to your ISP's abuse@
address upon visit. Should RIPE Atlas probes then not probe
any HTTP servers? The answer is obviously no, they shouldn't
care.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Making arguments based upon extreme cases, assumptions, or
potential-for-collateral-damage is not scientific. "I know one that
even [...]" Anecdotal evidence isn't scientific.<br class="">
<br class="">
Note, I run a probe myself. I don't block any RIPE Atlas traffic on
my separate servers hosted on AWS, Oracle, and GCE. <br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="">-- <br class="">
Paul Theodoropoulos<br class="">
<a href="https://www.anastrophe.com/" target="_blank" class="">anastrophe.com</a></div>
</div>
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</blockquote></div>
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