[members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Draft RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Proposals

Hello.

Because RIPE budget includes many different things - financing research, Atlas and other very important and useful things, not only cost of registry operating. You can not assume that this two LIRs in example should finance that equally without aim to kill second LIR.

This example is missing one important thing - really small LIRs with single subnet or without any - hobbynet LIRs or small companies who decided to be independent or just starting LIR business. There are also lots of LIRs who are natural persons. Regardless of their consumption assuming they should sponsor research or Atlas equally is terrible.

That’s why all other RIRs have different level based charging scheme. RIPE is the only one who constantly refuses to apply it.

> On 16 Apr 2024, at 11:36, Evgeniy Brodskiy via members-discuss <members-discuss at ripe.net> wrote:
> 
> Confidential/Конфіденційно
> 
> Dear Murat TERZIOGLU,
> 
> Why you make a decision that Mercedes-Benz need more RIPE staff time and spends comparing to your another LIR ??
> Because we are talking about RIPE budget which convert in RIPE spends. And if both LIRs consume equivale spends from RIPE budget why they have to pay different fee ?
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net>> On Behalf Of m.terzioglu at prebits.de <mailto:m.terzioglu at prebits.de>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2024 10:51 AM
> To: members-discuss at ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net>
> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Draft RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Proposals
> 
> Interesting...
> 
> Mercedes-Benz has 16 x IPv4 allocations:
> 1 x /8
> 13 x /21
> 2 x /22
> will pay in new scheme (one option)
> 2650€ / year
> 
> 
> Another LIR, has 16 x IPv4 allocations:
> 16 x /24
> will pay in new scheme also (one option) 2650€ / year
> 
> Yes, i know, it wasnt different before. But i am new and i am asking general questions...
> 
> RIPE is non-profit organisation but the small LIRs are paying for the bigger LIRs.
> 
> Because they are older than many players in world, they use the resources on shoulders of the smaller players.
> 
> YES, THESE RESOURCES ARE PUBLIC!!!
> 
> 
> Dear RIPE community, would you please pay my launch today, and always? Because this is only available here :)
> 
> --
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Best Regards
> 
> Murat TERZIOGLU
> PREBITS
> 
> Bochumer Str. 20
> 44866 Bochum
> Deutschland
> 
> Telefon: 0234/58825994
> Telefax: 0234/58825995
> 
> http://www.prebits.de/
> info at prebits.de <mailto:info at prebits.de>
> 
> USt-ID: DE315418902
> 
> 
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net>> Im Auftrag von ROSKOMNADZOR LIMITED
> Gesendet: Montag, 15. April 2024 23:24
> An: Evgeniy Brodskiy <Evgeniy.Brodskiy at kyivstar.net <mailto:Evgeniy.Brodskiy at kyivstar.net>>
> Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net>
> Betreff: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Draft RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Proposals
> 
> 1) Land is end limited resource - like a IP pool
> 2) Managed by single legacy monopoly - like a RIR in region
> 3) Have market price - like a current IP on market
> 4) Can be only holded by specific time - like a IP PA addresses
> 
> IP already a some sort of property what are you can rent/lease/sell/buy.
> Big holders making a lobby for pay minimal amount for himself.
> And current RIPE policy doing one main thing - making small LIRs for paying same amount as large holders.
> 
> Im make a list of top 88 most bigger holders in RIPE region and...
> 
> IF any of this 88 Extra Large LIRs pay for 500.000 EUR - budget of RIPE will be instantly fullfilled, and for this companies this amount will not be a high!
> 
> 1) UK MoD
> 2) Mersedes-Benz
> 3) Orange
> 4) Free SAS
> 5) WIND TRE S.P.A. (Italia)
> 6) Telecom Italia S.p.A.
> 7) Deutsche Telekom AG
> 8) British Telecommunications PLC
> ...
> and more, and more
> 
> This companies have a super high budgets and can pay that even without trouble...
> 
> BUT this companies will NOT be do that! Because prefer to send all spending on someone else - i.e. small LIRs.
> 
> RIPE is important for all, but why take RIPE take fee preferred from small LIRs? Huh?
> 
> Why LIR with 0 IPv4, 1 ASN and 1 IPv4 /48, must pay same as Orange, Deutsche Telekom AG, British Telecommunications PLC, KYIVSTAR and other big telecoms?
> 
> On 15.04.2024 21:05, Evgeniy Brodskiy wrote:
>> Confidential/Конфіденційно
>> 
>> An interesting approach is to treat to IPs like a land, take taxes, fee as % of deal price, etc.
>> And if we don't stop a halfway. Since land is property with all the attendant rights and limits of ownership, the IPs will also become a property. This appears to be the ultimate goal of such proposals.
>> 
>> Not sure that thing like this is what the community really needs.
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net>> On Behalf Of
>> ROSKOMNADZOR LIMITED
>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2024 10:49 AM
>> To: Michel Lanners <michel.lanners at lu-cix.lu <mailto:michel.lanners at lu-cix.lu>>;
>> members-discuss at ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net>
>> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Draft RIPE NCC
>> Charging Scheme 2025 Proposals
>> 
>> Holders of IPv4 are same as holders of land.
>> 
>> Being member of RIPE mean you have ability to have resources (aka
>> land) and vote. (like a being citizenship give only 1 (ONE) vote -
>> doesnt matter how much taxes you pay per year!)
>> 
>> But in addition you must pay per resources what you have/own - like a land tax.
>> 
>> RIPE NCC is registered in NL, NL is part of EU, so - EU principes must be also apply in same way!
>> 
>> So, in EU land taxes usually payed per (sq.m in own OR market price), nor per registered object in own.
>> 
>> Moreover, in EU also present tax on selling operations - i.e. if someone sell resources (aka land) - its must also pay some fee as % of deal price, but RIPE didnt charge for that (what are also unfair).
>> 
>> P.S.
>> Michael, Im also want to remember you about that -
>> https://www/.
>> lu-cix.lu <http://lu-cix.lu/>%2Fapp%2Fuploads%2F2024%2F01%2FLU-CIX-ASBL-new-price-list-2&d
>> ata=05%7C02%7CEvgeniy.Brodskiy%40kyivstar.net <http://40kyivstar.net/>%7C860a06771bd946d991ab08
>> dc5dea2f7d%7Cf8f9bd573bba4300a6ec3b8e70a30986%7C0%7C0%7C63848850762336
>> 3489%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBT
>> iI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=IGEldOP%2FLElKUMIkuwH7ER8
>> izGZ6FYFg1GeY4Df0LEo%3D&reserved=0
>> 024.pdf LU-CIX non-profit organization, but your pricing different
>> from port bandwidth (why not same price for all?) - but you calling people about "same price" is good for RIPE.
>> Im really doesnt understand you. Sorry.
>> 
>> On 15.04.2024 7:22, Michel Lanners wrote:
>>>> On 13 Apr 2024, at 18:35, Blake Shepherd <blake66 at live.co.uk <mailto:blake66 at live.co.uk>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Please can you tell me how this company and alot of others.
>>>> 
>>>> https://bgp/
>>>> .tools%2Frir-owner%2Fuk.btent&data=05%7C02%7CEvgeniy.Brodskiy%40kyiv
>>>> s
>>>> tar.net <http://tar.net/>%7Ce4e8a4332c5d49e6cde908dc5d215a63%7Cf8f9bd573bba4300a6ec3b8
>>>> e
>>>> 70a30986%7C0%7C0%7C638487645323443698%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIj
>>>> o
>>>> iMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%
>>>> 7
>>>> C%7C%7C&sdata=Lu7Kf9N5olxNSkGwrc0wVdjKyafXx9P%2F2zBqy%2FIVzsU%3D&res
>>>> e
>>>> rved=0
>>>> 
>>>> https://bgp/
>>>> .tools%2Frir-owner%2Fuk.btgia&data=05%7C02%7CEvgeniy.Brodskiy%40kyiv
>>>> s
>>>> tar.net <http://tar.net/>%7Ce4e8a4332c5d49e6cde908dc5d215a63%7Cf8f9bd573bba4300a6ec3b8
>>>> e
>>>> 70a30986%7C0%7C0%7C638487645323451250%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIj
>>>> o
>>>> iMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%
>>>> 7
>>>> C%7C%7C&sdata=z7yGYhxpJQfmVlH9w6WNUQybDNsnpoLzuhacZZs%2BHEo%3D&reser
>>>> v
>>>> ed=0
>>>> 
>>>> Pays the same as me please show me how ripe is equal or fair please
>>>> do something and add a fee per ipv4 and ipv6 it's not hard to make it fair.
>>> 
>>> Because RIPE is a MEMBERSHIP organisation. It’s not a commercial
>>> company selling something.
>>> 
>>> If I’m asked to pay more I also want more voting rights. Consequence:
>>> the few big ones will dominate and steer RIPE in the direction THEY
>>> want. I don’t think that’s in the interest of those who yell at the
>>> unfair membership rate.
>>> 
>>> RIPE is fair because every member has the same right and the same one vote.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> *Michel LANNERS*
>>> CIO at LU-CIX Management G.I.E.
>>> --
>>> <https://www/
>>> .luxchat.lu <http://luxchat.lu/>%2F&data=05%7C02%7CEvgeniy.Brodskiy%40kyivstar.net <http://40kyivstar.net/>%7Ce4e8a
>>> 4
>>> 332c5d49e6cde908dc5d215a63%7Cf8f9bd573bba4300a6ec3b8e70a30986%7C0%7C0
>>> %
>>> 7C638487645323458125%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQ
>>> I
>>> joiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=E12f
>>> X iforWLy60FfnZNuygnWOsfcJjPi81tmFuSReRI%3D&reserved=0>
>>> Mail: michel.lanners at lu-cix.lu <mailto:michel.lanners at lu-cix.lu> <mailto:michel.lanners at lu-cix.lu>
>>> Luxchat: @3eb2pdflrq57:01.lu-cix.luxchat.lu <http://01.lu-cix.luxchat.lu/>
>>> Phone: (+352) 28 99 29 92-81
>>> *LU-CIX Management G.I.E.*
>>> 202, Z.A.E. Wolser F
>>> L-3290 Bettembourg
>>> lu-cix.lu <http://lu-cix.lu/>
>>> <https://www/
>>> .lu-cix.lu <http://lu-cix.lu/>%2F&data=05%7C02%7CEvgeniy.Brodskiy%40kyivstar.net <http://40kyivstar.net/>%7Ce4e8a4
>>> 3
>>> 32c5d49e6cde908dc5d215a63%7Cf8f9bd573bba4300a6ec3b8e70a30986%7C0%7C0%
>>> 7
>>> C638487645323463707%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQI
>>> j
>>> oiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gOIpC
>>> k Q%2Fs02jD74QdFTvgD0oN6%2B8TRb211MlXgm03Hs%3D&reserved=0>
>>> luxchat.lu <http://luxchat.lu/>
>>> <https://www/
>>> .luxchat.lu <http://luxchat.lu/>%2F&data=05%7C02%7CEvgeniy.Brodskiy%40kyivstar.net <http://40kyivstar.net/>%7Ce4e8a
>>> 4
>>> 332c5d49e6cde908dc5d215a63%7Cf8f9bd573bba4300a6ec3b8e70a30986%7C0%7C0
>>> %
>>> 7C638487645323470030%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQ
>>> I
>>> joiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=dLxj
>>> a cs%2FE%2FLVtOT1c6Ub9PJ5WWM0yY1v09o4JdnVdw0%3D&reserved=0>
>>> luxembourg-internet-days.com <http://luxembourg-internet-days.com/>
>>> <https://lux/
>>> embourg-internet-days.com <http://embourg-internet-days.com/>%2F&data=05%7C02%7CEvgeniy.Brodskiy%40kyivst
>>> a
>>> r.net <http://r.net/>%7Ce4e8a4332c5d49e6cde908dc5d215a63%7Cf8f9bd573bba4300a6ec3b8e70
>>> a
>>> 30986%7C0%7C0%7C638487645323475953%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC
>>> 4
>>> wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C
>>> %
>>> 7C&sdata=LzeyrIIrJDEasmZcC6WdtegokZy%2B%2BUEyotsu%2BloT%2BeE%3D&reser
>>> v
>>> ed=0> lunog.lu <http://lunog.lu/>
>>> <https://www/
>>> .lunog.lu <http://lunog.lu/>%2F&data=05%7C02%7CEvgeniy.Brodskiy%40kyivstar.net <http://40kyivstar.net/>%7Ce4e8a43
>>> 3
>>> 2c5d49e6cde908dc5d215a63%7Cf8f9bd573bba4300a6ec3b8e70a30986%7C0%7C0%7
>>> C
>>> 638487645323483181%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIj
>>> o
>>> iV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=xygqD%
>>> 2 BQOYtONm779kP97U%2Bd6POUAG0XXjXeXWe3QCQE%3D&reserved=0>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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>>> d
>>> 573bba4300a6ec3b8e70a30986%7C0%7C0%7C638487645323488581%7CUnknown%7CT
>>> W
>>> FpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI
>>> 6
>>> Mn0%3D%7C60000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=2H1dCEGdeJO6n9YQJXZKXUna3dLhYpWCeCZFhgx
>>> y
>>> AHU%3D&reserved=0
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>>> c
>>> gBXp6a9M%2FAvEqDPJhsOzQ5rOb1EZTKbE%3D&reserved=0
>>> 
>> 
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>> iy.Brodskiy%40kyivstar.net <http://40kyivstar.net/>%7C860a06771bd946d991ab08dc5dea2f7d%7Cf8f9bd
>> 573bba4300a6ec3b8e70a30986%7C0%7C0%7C638488507623370371%7CUnknown%7CTW
>> FpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6
>> Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Pzu1szVFpRbqJMsRLW7UWN1Xq108vbkUlr2iG7PYT%2B
>> M%3D&reserved=0
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>> dc5dea2f7d%7Cf8f9bd573bba4300a6ec3b8e70a30986%7C0%7C0%7C63848850762337
>> 6607%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBT
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>> ssCWo0Kpy1eyKqLr7w%3D&reserved=0
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