[members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Draft RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Proposals

Paul agree. Somebody need just register and that’s all. Should be a way to split basic registry service from all other additions. Who need additions can pay for them separately.
Another thing Member Fee. If we discuss how may bill each IPv4 subnet, IPv6 subnet, ASN then must be some Member Fee separately from resource fee.
And after we cut all additions like Learning, Kroot, RPKI, Atlas, etc., one-time operations like transfer, ASN registering etc. and Member Fee. All is left can be spitted between LIRs on some proportion based (or category model based which is more preferable for me) on consumed resources.

Not as some people suggest just take 44M EUR and split it on 159142 pieces.
Not just using more resources = pay more, but also consume more RIPE time also = pay more.



Btw Ivaylo. There's a tried from RIPE NCC to shift on categories which is rejected by community.
https://www.ripe.net/media/documents/RIPE_NCC_Charging_Scheme_Models.pdf
You can see by yourself result of voting. So when you demand even more radical approach, how much chance it has to pass voting ??


P.S.
Member Fee from other RIRs:
APNIC Sign-Up Fee - AUD 500 (~325$ ) https://www.apnic.net/get-ip/apnic-membership/how-much-does-it-cost/
ARIN (categories) smallest category - 250$  https://www.arin.net/resources/fees/fee_schedule/
AFRINIC (categories) smallest category - 300$    https://afrinic.net/membership/cost#associate
LACNIC  (categories) smallest category - 600$     https://www.lacnic.net/5448/2/lacnic/ipv4-fees-for-isps


From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net> On Behalf Of Paul Newton
Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2024 3:26 PM
To: ivaylo <ivaylo at bglans.net>
Cc: <members-discuss at ripe.net> <members-discuss at ripe.net>
Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Draft RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Proposals

And training credits to be given in a form redeemable for cash if not used ....

On Sat, 13 Apr 2024, 12:23 ivaylo, <ivaylo at bglans.net<mailto:ivaylo at bglans.net>> wrote:

Hello Kai

>> Flat equal fee for all members = Flat equal resource for all members
>
> Says who?

From IANA documents signed and agreed from RIPE:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
4) Neutrality and impartiality in relation to all interested
parties, and particularly the LIRs

All organisations that receive service from the new RIR must be
treated equally. The policies and guidelines proposed and implemented
by the RIR need to ensure fair distribution of resources, and
impartial treatment of the members/requestors.

The new RIR should be established as an independent, not-for-profit
and open membership association.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

This pont 4. is a constitution about the RIRs. In the light of equal
membership fees and equal rights leads to equal (fair) resource
distribution to _ALL_ members/requestors no matter their wish or
interests ! All RIPE policies and guidelines contrary to this point 4
implemented during the years can be treated as invalid. I am prety sure
the RIPE NCC board are inteligent, respectable , with high sense of
responsibility people and will agree with me. They offer flat
charging scheme because we (members) want such, so we go with it and with
all consequences wich it will lead. If we (members) agree on something
else they (The NCC board) will offer it to vote, and if is accepted we go
with it and with all its consequences again.


>> Because IRR and ROA records will be keep unchanged,
>
> How/why that?

How: Automatic, IRR+ROA of the moved block will not be keep same. Login in
      your LIR panel account and search  the functions you have.
Why: To prevent disruption in the work of the donor LIR until/if
      agreement between 2 LIRs is reached. Even in the first 3 months
      after the redistribution, delete/change of these object should
      be disabled, after that period the Receiving LIR have rights to
      modify the objects.


>> We must do it equal to all on 100%. with 21570 LIRs and 25029 ASN delegated
>> to RIPE from IANA, we will be fine, each member can hold 1 x 16bit ASN ,
>> Also there is enough for the IXPs I hope.
>
> There are 21570 16 bit ASNs delegated to the NCC?
>
No ! Delegated 16 bit ASNs to RIPE NCC are 25029 source:
https://www.iana.org/assignments/as-numbers/as-numbers.xhtml



> I voiced for a simple resource based fee scheme ? bill any /24 equivalent,
> any /48 equivalent, and any ASN that is managed by RIPE NCC to the holding
> LIR ? in 2023. And I still don't think the RIPE NCC should continue all
> current activities unchanged.
>
I Partitialy agree. /48 IPV6 do not match /24 IPV4 equivalent in many
cases (access operators), There are no exact equivalent, but more close,
comfort to work and scalable network logic with current technical
documents and solutions is /32 IPV6 to /24 IPV4 (if you need deeper
technical explain write me outside of the mail list).

I agree the charging scheme base on /24 IPV4 block, but to prevent GRT
(Global Routing Table) prefixes increase and big deagregation, better is
on /22 to /18 IPV4 blocks. The results will be same in case of flat ladder
up scheme (most fair to all). If we go exponential decreasing up, then we
should choise smaller block size as a base.

Again from the IANA documents:
https://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv4-address-space/ipv4-address-space.xhtml

To RIPE NCC are allocated 35 x /8 IPV4 BLOCKs and 7 x /8 legacy . Some of
this space is transfered outside of RIPE / returned to IANA, but to know
exact numbers must do querries (2752512) for each /24 or somebody of the
RIPE staff to give exact number. When we have this information and with
target budget of 42M (I prefer the budget to be 60M-65M, with standart
method of over colleted redistribution for the next year. Also we can
push for budget reduction and to vote wich projects to support and wich
not) we will be able to do much more precise calculations.



Ivaylo Josifov
VarnaIX / Varteh LTD
+359 52 969393
Varna, Bulgaria


On Fri, 12 Apr 2024, Kai Siering via members-discuss wrote:

> Moin,
>
> am 12.04.24 um 20:17 schrieb ivaylo:
>>
>> Flat equal fee for all members = Flat equal resource for all members
>
> Says who?
>
>> Because IRR and ROA records will be keep unchanged,
>
> How/why that?
>
>> We must do it equal to all on 100%. with 21570 LIRs and 25029 ASN delegated
>> to RIPE from IANA, we will be fine, each member can hold 1 x 16bit ASN ,
>> Also there is enough for the IXPs I hope.
>
> There are 21570 16 bit ASNs delegated to the NCC?
>
>> Finally If you dont like such fair/equal scenario (RIPE NCC will be obliged
>> to apply it with flat equal fee for all LIRs = flat equal resource spread
>> to all LIRs),
>
> First of all, I see no legal reason for your claim, the NCC would have to
> distribute the it's available resources equally among its members. Other RIRs
> don't either, and it makes no sense to e. g. force an /16 v4 on us if we're
> happy with an /22. Needs-based distribution, the current modus operandi, does
> make much more sense.
>
>> a fair and long term sustainable fee scheme for at least the next 10 years
>> wich will cover the RIPE NCC budget and guarantee predictable and stable
>> bussiness climate to ALL !
>
> I voiced for a simple resource based fee scheme ? bill any /24 equivalent,
> any /48 equivalent, and any ASN that is managed by RIPE NCC to the holding
> LIR ? in 2023. And I still don't think the RIPE NCC should continue all
> current activities unchanged.
>
> Having looked at the schemes of other RIRs, maybe some inverse exponential
> function makes more sense than simply count an /8 equivalent as 65536 times
> /24. But I'd still prefer a straight formula instead of categories. And a
> member's vote on any and all activity starting with FY 2025.
>
> Regards,
> -kai
>
> --
> Kai Siering
> Senior System Engineer
>
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