[members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024

Hi Mike,

I'm curious why you feel that charge more / spend more should be the 
only option for vote?

Why should we not vote that RIPE reduce its expenses instead?

Cheers
Daniel~

On 3/9/23 05:21, mail at mys.co.uk wrote:
> Hello
>
> Tiered membership cost structures should be the only options put 
> forward for a vote as this is the only viable and sustainable way 
> forward.
>
> The current structure is rapidly pushing up costs for members with 
> XS/S allocations making it unsustainable and RIPE can not afford to 
> continue with the decreasing revenue this model achieves.
>
> Is is a no-brainer for LIRs with multiple accounts to amalgamate their 
> positions into one LIR account and that is not sustainable under the 
> current pricing structure. It seems reasonable to me that LIR 
> membership costs should be calculated pro-rata on the number of 
> resources held by each LIR, albeit with a base membership cost of say 
> €500 per LIR with a /22 or less. Each additional /22 should be costed 
> on the total amount of /22's within RIPE divided by the required 
> income budget set by RIPE for the following year.
>
> For the sake of LIRs with small or extra small resources, and also for 
> the sustainability of RIPE itself, RIPE can not in my view, even risk 
> the option of continuing with the current “Option 1” model.
>
> Best
> Mike
>
> *
> *
>
>
> On 8 Mar 2023, at 21:46, Lukasz Jarosz <lukasz at jarosz.pl> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I also think, that before so sever fee increases are implemented, 
> budget should be reconsidered. I want to point out that according to
> "RIPE NCC Activity Plan and Budget 2023” ( 
> https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-786/#4.%20Maintaining%20a%20Strong%20Organisation ) 
> *RIPE is spending as much money for these extracurricular activities 
> as for maintaining registry*.
> Especially with some of our members suffering from war and other 
> natural disasters, RIPE shouldn’t be budgeting to increase 
> investments, but only for sustaining required services.
>
> Best regards,
> Lukasz Jarosz
>
>> Wiadomość napisana przez Kaj Niemi <kajtzu at basen.net> w dniu 
>> 07.03.2023, o godz. 12:02:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>> Thanks, the email and the excel made for some quite interesting 
>> reading. There are a few other reasonable options which were not 
>> listed on the slide deck from 2021 nor in your email.
>>
>> An obvious option would be to reduce budgeted RIPE NCC expenditure to 
>> the level of forecasted revenue. This is what most normal companies, 
>> without assured funding, must do.
>>
>> Another option would be to charge LIRs for the services they use. 
>> With this I do not mean IP addresses and ASNs that were mentioned in 
>> your model but for everything. Someone who is using only basic LIR 
>> services (IP/ASN assignments, reverse name services) would not have 
>> to pay for "value-added services" (VAS).
>>
>> With VAS I mean RIPE NCC's varied extracurricular activities such as 
>> outreach, education programs and software development that have 
>> expanded considerably over the years and have undoubtedly been of 
>> some value to some of its members. Still, many of the same 
>> roles/functions are also conducted by membership organizations, NOGs, 
>> and independent software developers. Imposition of the costs of such 
>> programs on members, who either don't benefit from or do not use 
>> them, equates the charging model functioning mostly as an ATM to 
>> finance the ambitions and initiatives of the RIPE NCC leadership and 
>> a small group of active advocates.
>>
>> Some of us would be happy with a Big Mac meal rather than the 
>> expensive all you can eat seafood buffet 😉
>>
>>
>>
>> Kaj
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ncc-announce <ncc-announce-bounces at ripe.net> On Behalf Of Simon 
>> Jan Haytink
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 7, 2023 11:35
>> To: ncc-announce at ripe.net
>> Subject: [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 
>> 2024
>>
>> Dear RIPE NCC members,
>>
>> We would like to re-open the consultation we began with the 
>> membership in 2021 on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model, and we 
>> would like to carry out that consultation well in advance of the RIPE 
>> NCC General Meeting (GM) May 2023.
>>
>> In 2021, we presented on this topic at the GM, and we also surveyed 
>> our members and held an open house to get direct input on the 
>> charging scheme model that members would like to see implemented by 
>> the RIPE NCC. The outcome at that stage of the consultation was that 
>> there were strong cases made for both the current one-LIR, one-fee 
>> model and for a category-based model that would charge based on the 
>> number of resources held by a member. A strong case was also made to 
>> charge for all resources allocated or assigned by the RIPE NCC, 
>> including ASNs, and to charge a fee for transfers.
>>
>> The Executive Board decided to suspend the consultation in light of 
>> the war in Ukraine, but we are eager to decide on a way forward on 
>> this matter together with the membership.
>>
>> One of the main reasons that we would like to advance the discussion 
>> on the charging model is that we expect many members with multiple 
>> LIR accounts who received resources in 2021 to merge these accounts 
>> in the coming year. This means that the income the RIPE NCC receives 
>> will be reduced by a significant amount and we will need to ensure 
>> that our charging model allows us to collect the revenue required to 
>> maintain our operations. We believe that a category-based model would 
>> be best suited to cover this consolidation risk. Continuing with the 
>> existing model would mean that an increase in fees for all 
>> members would be required. Our ultimate goal is to arrive at a 
>> charging scheme model that will be sustainable for many years to 
>> come, meeting the needs of the RIPE NCC’s members.
>>
>> To help with discussion and to provide something tangible for members 
>> to assess, we are putting forward two draft models for members to 
>> review. These models can be summarised as:
>>
>> Model 1: A “one-LIR, one-fee” model based on the current RIPE NCC 
>> Charging Scheme 2023  that also charges for independent resources, 
>> ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & 
>> Acquisitions.
>>
>> Model 2: A category-based model that charges per member (not per LIR 
>> account) and is based on resources registered and that also charges 
>> for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business 
>> structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions.
>>
>> In order to allow members to form an opinion based on their own 
>> situation, we are providing an Excel sheet that will allow you 
>> to calculate the fees you would pay under each of the draft models. 
>> It is important to be aware that at this stage, the numbers assigned 
>> for each item are indicative and would be reviewed in light of the 
>> discussion with members. We plan to review these figures following 
>> consultation with the members, and giving input on those figures 
>> would greatly help to arrive at a good model.
>>
>> You can download the Excel sheet from:
>> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe.net%2Fparticipate%2Fmail%2Fmember-and-community-consultations%2Fmember-calculator-charging-scheme-2024.xlsx&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cba37c5f6a8244dc0053308db1ef066de%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638137790087678748%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=p27R1eIR06WMjapHci7lCcjUxNBvlnExmGvJr6XesOA%3D&reserved=0
>>
>> We also plan to hold another Open House meeting on the Charging 
>> Scheme in March to further discuss the charging scheme models. The 
>> Executive Board will then take the input and decide on one or more 
>> charging schemes for the membership to vote on at the GM to be held 
>> on 24 May 2023. The outcome of that vote will determine the charging 
>> scheme model to be used in the coming years.
>>
>> I ask that you provide your input on this important consultation on 
>> the Membership Discussion mailing list (members-discuss at ripe.net) by 
>> 26 April. Input provided up to this date will be considered by the 
>> Board when formulating the charging schemes to be proposed for the 
>> GM. Input after this date is of course also welcome although it might 
>> not be reflected in the schemes put forward to the membership at the GM.
>>
>> The consultation will also be recorded and available from:
>> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe.net%2Fparticipate%2Fmail%2Fmember-and-community-consultations&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cba37c5f6a8244dc0053308db1ef066de%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638137790087678748%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=HYL%2BY4nhlDzN2A0gsahcPXVxVLgVs7tNynm6fm7sJh8%3D&reserved=0 
>> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe.net%2Fparticipate%2Fmail%2Fmember-and-community-consultations&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cba37c5f6a8244dc0053308db1ef066de%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638137790087678748%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=HYL%2BY4nhlDzN2A0gsahcPXVxVLgVs7tNynm6fm7sJh8%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>> I look forward to your input.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Simon Jan Haytink
>> Finance Director
>> RIPE NCC
>>
>> Summary
>>
>> 7 March: Start consultation with membership on RIPE NCC Charging 
>> Scheme model
>> 21 March: Open House to discuss charging scheme with membership
>> 24 March: Executive Board meeting to discuss input received so far
>> 12 April: Publication of Draft RIPE NCC Charging Schemes 2024
>> 26 April: Publication of Final RIPE NCC Charging Schemes to be voted 
>> on by members
>> 24 May: RIPE NCC General Meeting May 2023
>>
>> References
>>
>> Open House and Survey Results
>> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe.net%2Fparticipate%2Fmeetings%2Fopen-house%2Fripe-ncc-open-house-charging-scheme-principles&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cba37c5f6a8244dc0053308db1ef066de%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638137790087678748%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=PXkQQ03kVkFM6T8w0wVHyjqKJV6ckSsqg6cNpg24e5w%3D&reserved=0
>>
>> Presentation at General Meeting
>> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ripe.net%2Fparticipate%2Fmeetings%2Fgm%2Fmeetings%2Fmay-2021%2Fdocumentation-and-archive%2Fripe-ncc-charging-scheme-discussion.pdf&data=05%7C01%7C%7Cba37c5f6a8244dc0053308db1ef066de%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638137790087678748%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=O9UYcJe53%2FlO08Qr4X%2FtcR2w0w6YopCcz448FcWGhdg%3D&reserved=0
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
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