[members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024

Hi all,

I agree with Cynthia except for the idea of categories in general.

It was just 11 years ago we changed from a category based fee to a general fee for all members for the reason of equality. [1][2]
I remember there have been discussion about it even during the GM, because smaller entities had an increase in expenses while larger entities would be able to save some money. In the end it got adopted, IIRC because what mattered was IP addresses are seen as a free resource which shouldn’t be the base for any charging scheme.

What has changed since then? What does this proposal try to achieve?

We’re charged to be a member and to provide access to services by RIPE NCC, not for in general free resources like IP addresses. Same could qualify for ASN, just a thought.

Are LIRs with larger or more allocations producing more service requirements? I could live with being charged per service ticket I create over a minimum amount of tickets per year. This at least would reflect required time resources of RIPE NCC to be compensated fairly.

Also, during the last years since the implementation of the „one LIR, one fee” scheme member fee has been reduced from 2000 € per year to the current 1400 € per year. And even with this reduction members get a redistribution because income is too high. I don’t see any reason for immediate action for possibilities no one can know for sure would happen.

Since end of 2020 RIPE NCC has a capital of 32,474 million € (32,472 in 2020) which seems to be the barrier. And even with the almost 8 million € budget increase to a sum of 40 million € in total for 2023 you expect this to be the same at end of 2023.

Again, what does this proposal try to achieve or solve?

best regards,
Christoph

1: https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-566
2: https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-591


> On 8. Mar 2023, at 20:08, Cynthia Revström via members-discuss <members-discuss at ripe.net> wrote:
> 
> Hi Simon,
> 
> In the current form there is no way that I can support Model 2 but I also have significant problems with Model 1 and don't want to support it either.
> I like the idea but the categories have to be a lot more sensible or alternatively don't use categories at all and purely do it based on the amount of IP space.
> 
> I have listed my main issues with Model 1 and Model 2 below.
> 
> Model 1:
> 1) Having a transfer fee of €1k is ludicrous in my opinion. I think this fee should be removed along with the M&A fee, but I can accept it if they are both €50.
> 2) Having a sign up fee and a separate new membership fee doesn't make any sense to me, there should just be one setup fee.
> 
> Model 2:
> 1) The largest category is too small. It doesn't make sense that an org with a /16 would get charged the same amount as one of the giant ISPs with over a /8 worth of IPv4 space.
> 2) With regards to the category prices, it doesn't make sense that the largest ISPs would just pay as much as 8 members who received a /22 or 16 members who received a /24.
> 3) With regards to PI/ASN, they should be left outside of any category calculations and just have the €50 fixed fee.
> 4) Same as issue 1 with model 1, the transfer fee is ludicrous.
> 
> While not one of my main objections, I would also prefer to only see the charge for ASNs applied to 16-bit ASNs to discourage use of 16-bit ASNs when there is no real need for them.
> I feel like this would be helpful because I have seen quite a few questionable new 16-bit ASN assignments while realistically we are not running out of 32-bit ASNs anytime soon.
> 
> -Cynthia
> 
> On Tue, Mar 7, 2023 at 10:43 AM Simon Jan Haytink <simon at ripe.net> wrote:
> Dear RIPE NCC members,
> 
> We would like to re-open the consultation we began with the membership in 2021 on the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model, and we would like to carry out that consultation well in advance of the RIPE NCC General Meeting (GM) May 2023. 
> 
> In 2021, we presented on this topic at the GM, and we also surveyed our members and held an open house to get direct input on the charging scheme model that members would like to see implemented by the RIPE NCC. The outcome at that stage of the consultation was that there were strong cases made for both the current one-LIR, one-fee model and for a category-based model that would charge based on the number of resources held by a member. A strong case was also made to charge for all resources allocated or assigned by the RIPE NCC, including ASNs, and to charge a fee for transfers. 
> 
> The Executive Board decided to suspend the consultation in light of the war in Ukraine, but we are eager to decide on a way forward on this matter together with the membership. 
> 
> One of the main reasons that we would like to advance the discussion on the charging model is that we expect many members with multiple LIR accounts who received resources in 2021 to merge these accounts in the coming year. This means that the income the RIPE NCC receives will be reduced by a significant amount and we will need to ensure that our charging model allows us to collect the revenue required to maintain our operations. We believe that a category-based model would be best suited to cover this consolidation risk. Continuing with the existing model would mean that an increase in fees for all members would be required. Our ultimate goal is to arrive at a charging scheme model that will be sustainable for many years to come, meeting the needs of the RIPE NCC’s members.
> 
> To help with discussion and to provide something tangible for members to assess, we are putting forward two draft models for members to review. These models can be summarised as:
> 
> Model 1: A “one-LIR, one-fee” model based on the current RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2023  that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions.
> 
> Model 2: A category-based model that charges per member (not per LIR account) and is based on resources registered and that also charges for independent resources, ASNs, transfers and changes in business structure such as Mergers & Acquisitions.
> 
> In order to allow members to form an opinion based on their own situation, we are providing an Excel sheet that will allow you to calculate the fees you would pay under each of the draft models. It is important to be aware that at this stage, the numbers assigned for each item are indicative and would be reviewed in light of the discussion with members. We plan to review these figures following consultation with the members, and giving input on those figures would greatly help to arrive at a good model. 
> 
> You can download the Excel sheet from:
> https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations/member-calculator-charging-scheme-2024.xlsx
> 
> We also plan to hold another Open House meeting on the Charging Scheme in March to further discuss the charging scheme models. The Executive Board will then take the input and decide on one or more charging schemes for the membership to vote on at the GM to be held on 24 May 2023. The outcome of that vote will determine the charging scheme model to be used in the coming years.
> 
> I ask that you provide your input on this important consultation on the Membership Discussion mailing list (members-discuss at ripe.net) by 26 April. Input provided up to this date will be considered by the Board when formulating the charging schemes to be proposed for the GM. Input after this date is of course also welcome although it might not be reflected in the schemes put forward to the membership at the GM.
> 
> The consultation will also be recorded and available from:
> https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/member-and-community-consultations
> 
> I look forward to your input.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Simon Jan Haytink
> Finance Director
> RIPE NCC
> 
> Summary
> 
> 7 March: Start consultation with membership on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme model
> 21 March: Open House to discuss charging scheme with membership
> 24 March: Executive Board meeting to discuss input received so far
> 12 April: Publication of Draft RIPE NCC Charging Schemes 2024
> 26 April: Publication of Final RIPE NCC Charging Schemes to be voted on by members
> 24 May: RIPE NCC General Meeting May 2023
> 
> References
> 
> Open House and Survey Results
> https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-open-house-charging-scheme-principles
> 
> Presentation at General Meeting
> https://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2021/documentation-and-archive/ripe-ncc-charging-scheme-discussion.pdf
> 
> _______________________________________________
> members-discuss mailing list
> members-discuss at ripe.net
> https://mailman.ripe.net/
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/cne%40iphh.net