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[members-discuss] VL: IP transfer (in)security
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Daniel Pearson
daniel at privatesystems.net
Mon May 14 14:47:39 CEST 2018
Hi there, This is a mailing list, please use the unsubscribe link at the bottom of these emails that is associated with your email address! On 05/14/2018 07:45 AM, Anas Tablieh wrote: > > Please remove my mail address from this chat !!!!!! > > *From:*members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net> *On Behalf > Of *Daniel Pearson > *Sent:* lundi 14 mai 2018 14:25 > *To:* members-discuss at ripe.net > *Subject:* Re: [members-discuss] VL: IP transfer (in)security > > I concur, there is no legal leg to stand on to force space to be > returned. It just cannot happen, end period. Thinking about it is > nothing but a fantasy and we live in reality. > > What your asking is no different than having a complete stranger walk > up to your house, admire your big empty back yard, demand that you > give it to them because they want to build a house in your > neighborhood and well, you don't use your backyard so why can't they > have it for free? > > > > On 05/14/2018 07:05 AM, Peter Linder wrote: > > But there is no point in arguing this. It has been discussed over > and over: > > It is not feasible to "reclaim" legacy space, just because you > want it for free or at a very low cost. Current holders have a > good legal ground to refuse. Even if it was somehow reclaimed on > a large scale, it would last for a year or so? Remember, most > addresses would need to go to countries with large populations > where Internet is not built up like it is in Europe or North > America. Then what? Even if RIPE could reallocate addresses to > last a few more years it would mean even *more* work to do v6, not > less. > > Just buy the addresses you need, if more than RIPE will allocate > to you. I know this sucks, especially in poorer countries. But > that is probably the only way your business is going to happen, in > the short term. An alternative would be to bother the IETF to > release their reserved space but that is probably a waste of time > (never mind de-bogonizing it). > > Right now IPv4 shortage is hurting a little because of cost. It > will eventually start hurting more, and in different ways. There > are ways to prepare for that, including making sure v6 is enabled > and functioning on everything you make. > > /Peter > > Den 2018-05-14 kl. 13:38, skrev David Benwell: > > No its about preventing the waste of IP Addresses. Why allow a > LLR to retain address space that they may never have used. > > *From:*members-discuss > [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] *On Behalf Of *William > *Sent:* 14 May 2018 12:32 > *To:* Bunea TELECOM <suport at bunea.eu> <mailto:suport at bunea.eu> > *Cc:* members-discuss at ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net> > *Subject:* Re: [members-discuss] VL: IP transfer (in)security > > But this does not CHANGE IT IS THEFT, please have a look at > your history (or here in Croatia) - you want to do the same, > steal from some parts of the society ('the rich') to 'benefit' > the whole which ends horribly wrong. > > This discussion is almost as absurd as the Russian suggestion > to move RIPE to Moscow. > > -- > > William Weber > > Consulting, Security & Management - Tel-Aviv, Israel / Rijeka, > Croatia > > https://ip6.im- No RIPE LIR? Still read this email for some > reason? Grab a /40 *free* IPv6 space for BGP usage. Or just > get it anyway, can't hurt to have. > > On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 13:16, Bunea TELECOM <suport at bunea.eu > <mailto:suport at bunea.eu>> wrote: > > Everybody that says it’s theft, please consider the fact > that those ‘guys’ got their hands on /8 blocks tens of > years ago, and probably did not pay a dime for them. > > In the light of events, one /8, respecting the 1024 IPv4 > policy that RIPE has, would belong to over 16.000 LIR > accounts! > > And I must say, 16.000 companies would create a lot of > business compared to one company that holds a /8 :) > > Thanks > > — > > > imap://daniel%40knownhost%[email protected]:143/fetch%3EUID%3E.INBOX%3E303885?header=quotebody&part=1.2&filename=image001.jpg > > > > > > *Petru Bunea* / CEO > suport at bunea.eu <mailto:suport at bunea.eu> / +40752481282 > <tel:+40752481282> > > *Bunea TELECOM* / DATACENTER / APP DEVELOPMENT > http://www.bunea.eu <http://www.bunea.eu/> / +40745495495 > <tel:+40745495495> > > > On 14 May 2018, at 14:16, Alex Lobachov > <alxl at telenet.lv <mailto:alxl at telenet.lv>> wrote: > > Bruno has it’s point. > > Legacy parts of the space should be reclaimed, but > only ICANN has the power to do so. > > I don’t like to call it a thief, I’d rather say as all > IP space is rented (owning a number isn’t bright), all > that rented space, wherever it is legacy or current > should be re-audited to justify the reason of use. > > > -- > Alex Lobachov > Telenet, sia > Network Systems Engineer > LinkedIn: https://lv.linkedin.com/in/allxll > E-mail: alxl at telenet.lv <mailto:alxl at telenet.lv> > Skype: alxl__ > Direct office: +371 67886224 > Office: +371 67711111 > > *From:*Bruno Carvalho <mailto:bruno.carvalho at xrv.pt> > > *Sent:*Monday, May 14, 2018 2:04 PM > > *To:*members-discuss at ripe.net > <mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net> > > *Subject:*Re: [members-discuss] VL: IP transfer > (in)security > > William, > > Legacy or not, at one point a regulation was > introduced. And everyone should be regulated (pre-RIR > or not). > > Is the same has if you own a car from back the traffic > laws (1800 years?). If you drive it now, you have to > comply with all the laws that regulate the sector. > Why the legacy address space owners shouldn't have to > comply with the actual regulations? > > If we look deep on the spaces between 0.0.0.0 and > 255.255.255.255 (that are not local or bogons), i bet > that most than 50% are legacy and not used. > > --- > > Image removed by sender. XRV > > > > Bruno Carvalho (CEO xrv.pt <http://xrv.pt>) | +351 300 > 404 316 > P Please consider the environment before printing this > email > > > > Image removed by sender. Visit our website > <https://www.xrv.pt/> > Image removed by sender. Facebook > <https://www.facebook.com/xervers/>Image removed by > sender. Twitter <https://twitter.com/xervers> > > On 2018-05-14 12:46, William wrote: > > These are legacy. They are not RIR business. > > No RIR can reclaim them (and reclaim is plainly > wrong, they never owned them, this is pre-RIR > space), they are private property. > > Taking them is theft and nothing else, no matter > how you phrase it. > > -- > > William Weber > > Consulting, Security & Management - Tel-Aviv, > Israel / Rijeka, Croatia > > https://ip6.im <https://ip6.im/>- No RIPE LIR? > Still read this email for some reason? Grab a /40 > *free* IPv6 space for BGP usage. Or just get it > anyway, can't hurt to have. > > On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 12:27, Bunea TELECOM > <suport at bunea.eu <mailto:suport at bunea.eu>> wrote: > > I agree, > > There are tens of /8's available, some of them > even unannounced. For example there are lots > of entities which if they would gave up (even > partially) of their unused blocks, it would > push the IPv4 complete exaustion to 2020+. > > Thanks, > > Petru > > — > > > <email-signature.jpg> > > > > > > *Petru Bunea* / CEO > suport at bunea.eu <mailto:suport at bunea.eu>/ > +40752481282 <tel:+40752481282> > > *Bunea TELECOM*/ DATACENTER / APP DEVELOPMENT > http://www.bunea.eu <http://www.bunea.eu/>/ > +40745495495 <tel:+40745495495> > > > On 14 May 2018, at 11:20, Janarthanan > Sundaram <j.sundaram at 123telcom.nl > <mailto:j.sundaram at 123telcom.nl>> wrote: > > I think we should prioritize on on point > two: what to do with unused blocks. > > > *Van:* members-discuss > <members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net > <mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net>> > *Namens *Bruno Carvalho > *Verzonden:* maandag 14 mei 2018 10:11 > *Aan:* members-discuss at ripe.net > <mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net> > *Onderwerp:* Re: [members-discuss] VL: IP > transfer (in)security > > This discussion is quite interesting. But > i think it should be discussed between all > RiRs. Not only for RIPE. > When we look at big companies, like > Microsoft, and do a simple scan of their > assigned IP ranges... we found some /14 > and several /16 unassigned/unused ranges. > > > Personnally, i think we should focus on 2 > main things: > > > - Improve IPv6 implementation all over the > territory (i know this is painfull for > many LIRs because it implies additional > work and purchase of new equipments. But > let's face it. We are in 2018. If an > equipment doesn't support IPv6, it's very > obsolete and not performant). > > > - Check with the other RiRs what would be > the best to do with those big unused > ranges that are owned by companies that > don't use them. > > > Regards > > > --- > > <blocked.gif> > > > > Bruno Carvalho (CEO xrv.pt > <http://xrv.pt/>) | +351 300 404 316 > P Please consider the environment before > printing this email > > > > > <blocked.gif> <https://www.xrv.pt/> > <blocked.gif> > <https://www.facebook.com/xervers/><blocked.gif> > <https://twitter.com/xervers> > > > > > On 2018-05-14 09:51, Hans Govenius wrote: > > > > > Hello > > Not needed IP = The addressese company > is ready to sell for a small profit > 😊 ? This is probably good indication > that its not used anymore. One option > is to automatically block all and any > IP transaction which does not involve > transaction of the whole > company/business. It is a question > that can IP be a commodity. Now its a > commodity that is getting more rare by > the year. Maybe IP should be > considered an jointly owned part of > infrastructure which is deployed by > need basis. (Socialistic way) > > Other option is to start to take money > per IP. This would instantly mean that > everyone would look up to own ip > spaces. Let say it would cost 1 euro / > year for a IP it would only be approx > 1000 euros for the smallest > allocation. Someone with 10 million IP > addressese are likely to happily pay > for it fi they are in use, but if they > are not i would think they would be > handed back. (Capitalistic way) > > One option is also to go with the > current system because internet is > working so its not horribly wrong at > the moment either. > > One interesting this is tho that old > LIR:s are likely to wanting to keep > these things unchanged. New LIR:s are > more likely to want changes as this is > heavily favoring old LIR:s. And every > year a proportionally larger part will > be the ones with few IP:s and same > vote than the one with alot of IP:s > and also only 1 vote. > > Br. Hans > > > > > -----Alkuperäinen viesti----- > Lähettäjä: members-discuss > <members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net > <mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net>> > Puolesta REG ID: pl.skonet > Lähetetty: maanantai 14. toukokuuta > 2018 10.34 > Vastaanottaja: pdonner at znak.fi > <mailto:pdonner at znak.fi>; > members-discuss at ripe.net > <mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net> > Aihe: Re: [members-discuss] VL: IP > transfer (in)security > > W dniu 14.05.2018 o 09:25, Philip > Donner pisze: > > > I would like to amplify Dave's > good proposal, by suggesting that > unused addresses should be handed > back to RIPE, so that they can be > added to a pool of addresses > reserved for LIRs who needs them > for non-profit promotion of IP > networks. > > > > Ok, but there is never ending story to > resolve: how to define 'unused > addresses'. Because not announced in > BGP definitely != not used. > > -- > > Tomasz Śląski > pl.skonet > > > _______________________________________________ > members-discuss mailing list > members-discuss at ripe.net > <mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net> > https://mailman.ripe.net/ > Unsubscribe: > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/hans.govenius%40devnet.fi > _______________________________________________ > members-discuss mailing list > members-discuss at ripe.net > <mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net> > https://mailman.ripe.net/ > Unsubscribe: > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/bruno.carvalho%40xrv.pt > > _______________________________________________ > members-discuss mailing list > members-discuss at ripe.net > <mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net> > https://mailman.ripe.net/ > Unsubscribe: > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/suport%40bunea.eu > > _______________________________________________ > members-discuss mailing list > members-discuss at ripe.net > <mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net> > https://mailman.ripe.net/ > Unsubscribe: > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/bruno.carvalho%40xrv.pt > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > members-discuss mailing list > members-discuss at ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net> > https://mailman.ripe.net/ > Unsubscribe: > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/alxl%40telenet.lv > > _______________________________________________ > members-discuss mailing list > members-discuss at ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net> > https://mailman.ripe.net/ > Unsubscribe: > https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/suport%40bunea.eu > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > members-discuss mailing list > > members-discuss at ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net> > > https://mailman.ripe.net/ > > Unsubscribe:https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/peter%40fiberdirekt.se > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > members-discuss mailing list > > members-discuss at ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net> > > https://mailman.ripe.net/ > > Unsubscribe:https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/daniel%40privatesystems.net > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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