[members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple LIR Accounts - Please Discuss

I would be glad to hear someone from the NCC answer to that. I was a bit 
surprised to find the amount of frustration from the staff, on an issue I 
was not much aware about. I think that if NCC staff finds this kind of 
issue a big problem they should let the comunity know.

Do they read this mailing list btw?

Cheers,
Daniel

On Fri, 12 Feb 2016, Hal Ponton wrote:

> Forgive me if this has already been mentioned in this thread (it's 
> Friday), but is there not a policy stating a mandatory wait time before 
> a new LIR can be merged into another?
> 
> If NCC staff can see that 1 LIR is opening new LIR's (even with another 
> new legal entity behind it), this can be then sent to a review board to 
> either allow or deny the merge. NCC staff will have the most experience 
> with this, if they can see someone blatantly breaking the policy they 
> should be able to at least push the applications to an entity to stop 
> this behavior. -- -- Regards,
> 
> Hal Ponton
> Senior Network Engineer
> 
> Buzcom / FibreWiFi
> 
> 
> 
>
>       Daniel Stolpe
> 12 February 2016 at 13:27
> 
> On Thu, 11 Feb 2016, Sascha Luck [ml] wrote:
> 
> 
> +1
> 
> Of course whenever you have rules, someone will be trying to get around them. Stopping "single legal entities" to open additional LIR:s will not make it
> impossible to still get several /22:s but at least we will not encourage such behaviour. At the time for RIPE 71 I was told that NCC staff were very frustrated
> because they could see this kind of applications and there were not much they could do about it.
> 
> Apparently there are/were cases when entities - or natural persons - were opening *lots* of LIR:s in order to merge them as soon as they received the /22 IPv4.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Daniel
> 
> _________________________________________________________________________________
> Daniel Stolpe           Tel:  08 - 688 11 81                   stolpe at resilans.se
> Resilans AB             Fax:  08 - 55 00 21 63            http://www.resilans.se/
> Box 45 094                                  556741-1193
> 104 30 Stockholm
> 
> 
> ----
> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss
> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page:
> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
> 
> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". >From here, you can add or remove addresses.
> Sascha Luck [ml]
> 11 February 2016 at 16:34
> On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 05:25:09PM +0100, Gert Doering wrote:
> 
> 
> That I could get behind, because this offence, as stated,
> requires two facts to be true:
> 
> a) an entity opens another LIR AND
> b) it does so in order to circumvent policy
> 
> So, opening another LIR would require the NCC to ascertain motive
> before it approves the second LIR and *that* I could live with.
> For instance, someone trying to open $lots_of_lirs in a short
> time frame would be strong circumstantial evidence that they are
> up to no good...
> 
> rgds,
> SAscha Luck
> 
> ----
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> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
> 
> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". >From here, you can add or remove addresses.
> Gert Doering
> 11 February 2016 at 16:25
> Hi,
> 
> Right.
> 
> (And as such, I follow this discussion with some mild amusement - very
> engaged, and most of it totally missing the question asked).
> 
> For the record: the policy we have seems to work as it was designed, namely,
> "new LIRs can still get IPv4 addresses". Can they get as much as they want?
> No. Would they get as much as they want if we loosen up the policy? No(!).
> Would that hurt later entrants into the market? Yes.
> 
> Thus, I think the NCC should not permit single entities to open up multiple
> LIRs to weasel around policy restrictions.
> 
> Gert Doering
> -- no hats
> ----
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> h.lu at anytimechinese.com
> 11 February 2016 at 16:15
> Hi
> 
> I think one thing need to be clarified here, if I am not mistaken, Gert and Sander should confirm this as well, how many LIR can a single entity open is an
> member issue, how many IP each LIR get, should LIR return address, should v4 allocation request to have v6 in place first etc, is an policy issue need to be
> discussed in policy mailing list.
> 
> ? 2016?2?11????5:09?Tim Armstrong <tim at treestle.com> ???
>
>       That's not viable yet, have you seen how fragmented th v6 table is, even Tier 1 ISPs have gaps.
>
>       I would argue that we just reduce the allocation for additional LIRs. That is if a single legal entity (or it's subsidiaries) register a new LIR,
>       then the new LIR registered can only receive a /24 not a /22.
>
>       This way no one would act in bad faith trying to skirt the rules, and young ISPs still have the ability to grow without feeling significantly
>       choked.
>
>       -Tim
>
>       On 11/02/16 17:02, Janis Jaunosans wrote:
>       just get ipv6.
>
>       On 11/02/16 17:58, Matthias Šubik wrote:
>             Additionally ?
>                   On 11.02.2016, at 16:26, Simon Lockhart <s.lockhart at cablecomnetworking.co.uk> wrote:
>
>                   On Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 04:22:14PM +0100, Sebastian Wiesinger wrote:
>                         * Nigel Titley <exec-board at ripe.net> [2016-02-11 12:02]:
>                               2. If this activity is a problem that must be prevented, what action
>                               should the RIPE NCC take to attempt its prevention?
>
>                         Do not allow additional LIR accounts for a member.
>
>                   I would concur.
>
>                   One legal entity, one LIR. This should be easy for RIPE to implement, given
>                   that they require evidence of company registration or equivalent when
>                   establishing an LIR.
>
>             Even if it is possible to open more legal entities in the RIPE region, when requiring an exclusive contact person it makes it not
>             any harder for really new members, but harder for self cloning of members.
>
>             It might even be needed, to require the new contact person to complete the RIPE course, to slow down abusive behavior.
>             The use of a simple nominee is therefor more difficult than without the course requirement.
>
>             just my two cents
>             Matthias
> 
> 
>
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>
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> 
>
>       ----
>       If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss
>       mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page:
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>
>       Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
> 
> ----
> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss
> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page:
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> 
> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
> Tim Armstrong
> 11 February 2016 at 16:09
> That's not viable yet, have you seen how fragmented the v6 table is, even Tier 1 ISPs have gaps.
> 
> I would argue that we just reduce the allocation for additional LIRs. That is if a single legal entity (or it's subsidiaries) register a new LIR, then the new
> LIR registered can only receive a /24 not a /22.
> 
> This way no one would act in bad faith trying to skirt the rules, and young ISPs still have the ability to grow without feeling significantly choked.
> 
> -Tim
> 
> On 11/02/16 17:02, Janis Jaunosans wrote:
> 
> ----
> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss
> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page:
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> 
> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.

_________________________________________________________________________________
Daniel Stolpe           Tel:  08 - 688 11 81                   stolpe at resilans.se
Resilans AB             Fax:  08 - 55 00 21 63            http://www.resilans.se/
Box 45 094							      556741-1193
104 30 Stockholm