[members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [news] RIPE NCC Members and Multiple LIR Accounts - Please Discuss

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned in this thread (it's 
Friday), but is there not a policy stating a mandatory wait time before 
a new LIR can be merged into another?

If NCC staff can see that 1 LIR is opening new LIR's (even with another 
new legal entity behind it), this can be then sent to a review board to 
either allow or deny the merge. NCC staff will have the most experience 
with this, if they can see someone blatantly breaking the policy they 
should be able to at least push the applications to an entity to stop 
this behavior.
-- 
--
Regards,

Hal Ponton
Senior Network Engineer

Buzcom / FibreWiFi




> Daniel Stolpe <mailto:stolpe at resilans.se>
> 12 February 2016 at 13:27
>
> On Thu, 11 Feb 2016, Sascha Luck [ml] wrote:
>
>
> +1
>
> Of course whenever you have rules, someone will be trying to get 
> around them. Stopping "single legal entities" to open additional LIR:s 
> will not make it impossible to still get several /22:s but at least we 
> will not encourage such behaviour. At the time for RIPE 71 I was told 
> that NCC staff were very frustrated because they could see this kind 
> of applications and there were not much they could do about it.
>
> Apparently there are/were cases when entities - or natural persons - 
> were opening *lots* of LIR:s in order to merge them as soon as they 
> received the /22 IPv4.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Daniel
>
> _________________________________________________________________________________ 
>
> Daniel Stolpe           Tel:  08 - 688 11 81                   
> stolpe at resilans.se
> Resilans AB             Fax:  08 - 55 00 21 63            
> http://www.resilans.se/
> Box 45 094                                  556741-1193
> 104 30 Stockholm
>
>
> ----
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> general page:
> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
>
> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From 
> here, you can add or remove addresses.
> Sascha Luck [ml] <mailto:ripe-md at c4inet.net>
> 11 February 2016 at 16:34
> On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 05:25:09PM +0100, Gert Doering wrote:
>
>
> That I could get behind, because this offence, as stated,
> requires two facts to be true:
>
> a) an entity opens another LIR AND
> b) it does so in order to circumvent policy
>
> So, opening another LIR would require the NCC to ascertain motive
> before it approves the second LIR and *that* I could live with.
> For instance, someone trying to open $lots_of_lirs in a short
> time frame would be strong circumstantial evidence that they are
> up to no good...
>
> rgds,
> SAscha Luck
>
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> Gert Doering <mailto:gert at space.net>
> 11 February 2016 at 16:25
> Hi,
>
> Right.
>
> (And as such, I follow this discussion with some mild amusement - very
> engaged, and most of it totally missing the question asked).
>
> For the record: the policy we have seems to work as it was designed, 
> namely,
> "new LIRs can still get IPv4 addresses". Can they get as much as they 
> want?
> No. Would they get as much as they want if we loosen up the policy? No(!).
> Would that hurt later entrants into the market? Yes.
>
> Thus, I think the NCC should not permit single entities to open up 
> multiple
> LIRs to weasel around policy restrictions.
>
> Gert Doering
> -- no hats
> ----
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> h.lu at anytimechinese.com <mailto:h.lu at anytimechinese.com>
> 11 February 2016 at 16:15
> Hi
>
> I think one thing need to be clarified here, if I am not mistaken, 
> Gert and Sander should confirm this as well, how many LIR can a single 
> entity open is an member issue, how many IP each LIR get, should LIR 
> return address, should v4 allocation request to have v6 in place first 
> etc, is an policy issue need to be discussed in policy mailing list.
>
> ? 2016?2?11?,??5:09,Tim Armstrong <tim at treestle.com 
> <mailto:tim at treestle.com>> ??:
>
>> That's not viable yet, have you seen how fragmented th v6 table is, 
>> even Tier 1 ISPs have gaps.
>>
>> I would argue that we just reduce the allocation for additional LIRs. 
>> That is if a single legal entity (or it's subsidiaries) register a 
>> new LIR, then the new LIR registered can only receive a /24 not a /22.
>>
>> This way no one would act in bad faith trying to skirt the rules, and 
>> young ISPs still have the ability to grow without feeling 
>> significantly choked.
>>
>> -Tim
>>
>> On 11/02/16 17:02, Janis Jaunosans wrote:
>>> just get ipv6.
>>>
>>> On 11/02/16 17:58, Matthias S(ubik wrote:
>>>> Additionally ...
>>>>> On 11.02.2016, at 16:26, Simon Lockhart 
>>>>> <s.lockhart at cablecomnetworking.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 04:22:14PM +0100, Sebastian Wiesinger wrote:
>>>>>> * Nigel Titley <exec-board at ripe.net> [2016-02-11 12:02]:
>>>>>>> 2. If this activity is a problem that must be prevented, what 
>>>>>>> action
>>>>>>> should the RIPE NCC take to attempt its prevention?
>>>>>> Do not allow additional LIR accounts for a member.
>>>>> I would concur.
>>>>>
>>>>> One legal entity, one LIR. This should be easy for RIPE to 
>>>>> implement, given
>>>>> that they require evidence of company registration or equivalent when
>>>>> establishing an LIR.
>>>> Even if it is possible to open more legal entities in the RIPE 
>>>> region, when requiring an exclusive contact person it makes it not 
>>>> any harder for really new members, but harder for self cloning of 
>>>> members.
>>>>
>>>> It might even be needed, to require the new contact person to 
>>>> complete the RIPE course, to slow down abusive behavior.
>>>> The use of a simple nominee is therefor more difficult than without 
>>>> the course requirement.
>>>>
>>>> just my two cents
>>>> Matthias
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> ----
>>> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss
>>> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the 
>>> general page:
>>> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
>>>
>>> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". 
>>> From here, you can add or remove addresses.
>>
>> ----
>> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss
>> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the 
>> general page:
>> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
>>
>> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". 
>> From here, you can add or remove addresses.
> ----
> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss
> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page:
> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
>
> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
> Tim Armstrong <mailto:tim at treestle.com>
> 11 February 2016 at 16:09
> That's not viable yet, have you seen how fragmented the v6 table is, 
> even Tier 1 ISPs have gaps.
>
> I would argue that we just reduce the allocation for additional LIRs. 
> That is if a single legal entity (or it's subsidiaries) register a new 
> LIR, then the new LIR registered can only receive a /24 not a /22.
>
> This way no one would act in bad faith trying to skirt the rules, and 
> young ISPs still have the ability to grow without feeling 
> significantly choked.
>
> -Tim
>
> On 11/02/16 17:02, Janis Jaunosans wrote:
>
> ----
> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss
> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the 
> general page:
> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
>
> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From 
> here, you can add or remove addresses.

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