[members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members

Dears,

Please it's not related to me please gone me out the loop.

Regards,


-----Original Message-----
From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Timothy Roy
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 2:57 PM
To: admin at intl-alliance.com; members-discuss at ripe.net
Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members

I do not know what happened but after I sent my reply to this I started getting all sorts of emails relating to trouble tickets being created.

See attached emails if you like. I find this quite strange.

Anyone know why this would happen?


-----Original Message-----
From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of admin at intl-alliance.com
Sent: 28 May 2014 15:50
To: members-discuss at ripe.net
Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members

Folks, I sincerely apologize for my coarse language. I am just extremely frustrated over this situation.

On 2014-05-28 12:40, Timothy Roy wrote:
> I think that this is an issue to brought up through an Internet 
> Governance Forum which also deals with cooperation amongst various 
> stakeholders and entities.
> 
> I have found the reading quite interesting but it would be nice to 
> maintain a certain amount of etiquette (for some people) when writing 
> emails (especially on an open list like this one) by curbing the 
> language a bit.
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net 
> [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Lu Heng
> Sent: 28 May 2014 15:24
> To: Bill Lewis
> Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net
> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members
> 
> it's like blacklist for spammers...even though a lot of spammer claim 
> they are obeying the can-spam law, they still can not sue spamhuis for 
> blacklisting them, because end of the day, spamhuis are only express 
> their opinion and they do not force anyone to use their opinion.
> 
> same for the location thing, they only express their opinion and they 
> are not forcing anyone to believe in them...so aside from contact each 
> content provider or maxmind their self, i really don't see much we can 
> do about it.
> 
> but really...i don't think ripe member mailing list is something for 
> this kind of discussion about private business...
> 
> On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 12:37 PM, Bill Lewis <Bill.lewis at kijoma.co.uk>
> wrote:
>> hi,
>> 
>> this has become a problem for us recently. Customers reporting sites 
>> such as netflix and spotify declaring that they are in a different 
>> country.
>> 
>> The least this does is change their web pages to the language making 
>> it near impossible to use, the worst is a complete denial of service 
>> due to being outside the service coverage area.
>> 
>> We have had to ask customers of these services to pressure the 
>> content providers to resolve their location database issues as the 
>> likes of Maxmind are near impossible to gain any action out of from 
>> our experience.
>> 
>> It seems if paying customers of the content providers growl at them 
>> then the problem gets fixed a lot faster than an ISP contacting 
>> Maxmind etc..
>> 
>> Surely it isn't hard for the likes of Maxmind to use the top level 
>> country data from RIPE at least, before bolting on their localising 
>> data?
>> 
>> I am sure there are malicious entities out there feeding these 
>> databases with junk for the fun of it too..
>> 
>> --
>> Bill Lewis
>> Kijoma Broadband
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 28/05/2014 11:16, Sinan Özşekerci wrote:
>> 
>> I can’t understand why I have to spend time end effort to correct a 
>> private company’s database and helping them to  earn more money where 
>> they don’t mind to harm buissness of other ones with distributing 
>> false information about them.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> This comes to me like some kind of blackmailing, harming you in first 
>> place and forcing you to help them serve better and make more money.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> In our case , maximind is showing the location of  our IP subnets in 
>> a “Village” which of the  name is the same as our company just by 
>> coincidence, and is hundreds of km away from our HQ, in a totally 
>> different city.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> So all these algorithms and fancy ways they use to retrieve these 
>> “more specific” data is crap for me.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> As a LIR , I only know RIPE, and since RIPE is the Authority, I 
>> expect them to rely on their own database which has the information 
>> that I have control on, and not to some 3th party moneymakers.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Regards
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sinan ÖZŞEKERCİ
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net 
>> [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Edward Dore
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 12:41 PM
>> To: admin at intl-alliance.com
>> Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net
>> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The RIPE database is not primarily concerned with GeoIP data, it is a 
>> registry of who specific IP address blocks are allocated to and how 
>> they can be contacted.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> MaxMind may draw some of their GeoIP data from the the RIR databases, 
>> but they also get a lot of it from elsewhere, which allows them to be 
>> more specific than just the country code contained in the RIPE 
>> database.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Additionally, the RIPE database manual states the following for the 
>> “country” field in the “inetnum” object:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> "It has not been specified what this country means. It cannot 
>> therefore be used in any reliable way to map IP addresses to 
>> countries"
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> As a customer of MaxMind, I depend on them providing me with 
>> accurate, useful information about the location and use of IP 
>> addresses for fraud screening etc. If MaxMind were to draw that 
>> information only from the RIPE database, then not only would MaxMind 
>> be pointless (as I could just get the information directly from RIPE) 
>> but the accuracy would be significantly reduced (country level 
>> instead of city level) and it would be easy for people to game the 
>> system simply by changing their objects in the RIPE database to contain false information.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> MaxMind do not “make up” their information, they calculate it from 
>> multiple sources and this is what MaxMind customers are buying - data 
>> derived from multiple sources and processed by MaxMind’s algorithms.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Obviously these algorithms are never going to be 100% accurate, which 
>> is why if people believe that the data contained in the MaxMind 
>> database is inaccurate then they can submit suggestions for 
>> corrections which MaxMind will then evaluate. MixMind are under no 
>> obligation to use any corrections submitted and are quite right to 
>> reject them if they believe that they are inaccurate or misleading 
>> for any reason.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Accuracy of their database is important to MaxMinds’ customers and 
>> thus to MaxMind. If their database is largely inaccurate, then it is 
>> useless to their customers and MaxMind will lose business as a result.
>> Obviously it is therefore in MaxMind’s best interest to keep their 
>> database as accurate and up to date as possible.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> As for the open proxy vs VPN, I can completely understand why MaxMind 
>> could detect VPNs as open proxy servers and as a user of their 
>> minFraud service I would expect to treat the two in exactly the same 
>> way because they are providing an identical function - to obscure the 
>> location and details of the end user.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Edward Dore
>> Freethought Internet
>> 
>> On 28 May 2014, at 10:02, admin at intl-alliance.com wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I depend on Maxmind using data obtained from a central registry. If 
>> all ip tracing websites created their own databases with information 
>> they made up, we wouldn't bother with the RIPE database any more 
>> because it would become obsolete. We depend on ip tracing websites to 
>> gather their information from authority sites, not the garbage they 
>> produce on their own. And I'm only interested, as well as my 
>> end-users, of seeing ip information that I've registered in the 
>> appropriate places. Simply stating that "we're only interested in 
>> end-user locations" rather than ip registration data, sits badly in 
>> my mind. And it has also caught the attention of the RIPE NCC itself, 
>> which just sent me the following email regarding this situation:
>> 
>> Dear Jared,
>> 
>> Thank you for your email.
>> 
>> We value your concern about correct registration details for internet 
>> resources.
>> 
>> However the RIPE NCC has no authority on how private companies 
>> compile their data and how much they take information from the RIPE 
>> database in account.
>> Did you contacted MaxMind directly and informed them about the 
>> mismatching information they provide? Because finally if information 
>> are incorrect then this is not only damaging companies like yours but 
>> also the reputation of the providers of this data.
>> 
>> And I will forward your observation to my colleagues from the 
>> stat.ripe.net team as there for Geolocation we are using data from 
>> MaxMind.
>> https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo
>> 
>> Then my colleagues will check if there could be any conflicting 
>> information in our own tools.
>> 
>> --
>> Thank you again for bring up this topic.
>> 
>> Kind regards,
>> 
>> Marco Schmidt
>> RIPE NCC
>> 
>> 
>> On 2014-05-28 09:52, Alfredo Sola wrote:
>> 
>> That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've 
>> spent hours on their site manually updating all of their inaccuracies 
>> over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw up 
>> entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run 
>> proxies period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never 
>> proxies. And vpn services cannot be classified the same as open 
>> proxies as they are totally different.
>> 
>> 
>>             I think your issue is more a business model problem than 
>> a registry or IP problem.
>> 
>>             What you are saying is that you depend on Maxmind 
>> providing the location of your VPN servers / remote desktop servers 
>> rather than the location of users computers connected to them.
>> Maxmind, on the other hand, is saying that they provide the location 
>> of users if they can, or will mark the location as unknown.
>> 
>>             So your business model depends on Maxmind agreeing to 
>> provide to their customers something which is not what they pay to 
>> obtain. And they refuse. I personally don't think they can be blamed 
>> for that, but that's something between your company and Maxmind. And 
>> nothing in this has to do with RIPE.
>> 
>> 
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>> 
>> 
>> 
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> 
> 
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