[members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members

Some members in their infinite wisdom have decided to subscribe their ticketing systems to the mailing list, so they raised a ticket automatically when you sent your email and then sent the auto-response message back to you.

Edward Dore 
Freethought Internet 

On 28 May 2014, at 12:56, Timothy Roy <Timothy at tra.gov.om> wrote:

> I do not know what happened but after I sent my reply to this I started getting all sorts of emails relating to trouble tickets being created.
> 
> See attached emails if you like. I find this quite strange.
> 
> Anyone know why this would happen?
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of admin at intl-alliance.com
> Sent: 28 May 2014 15:50
> To: members-discuss at ripe.net
> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members
> 
> Folks, I sincerely apologize for my coarse language. I am just extremely frustrated over this situation.
> 
> On 2014-05-28 12:40, Timothy Roy wrote:
>> I think that this is an issue to brought up through an Internet 
>> Governance Forum which also deals with cooperation amongst various 
>> stakeholders and entities.
>> 
>> I have found the reading quite interesting but it would be nice to 
>> maintain a certain amount of etiquette (for some people) when writing 
>> emails (especially on an open list like this one) by curbing the 
>> language a bit.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net 
>> [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Lu Heng
>> Sent: 28 May 2014 15:24
>> To: Bill Lewis
>> Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net
>> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members
>> 
>> it's like blacklist for spammers...even though a lot of spammer claim 
>> they are obeying the can-spam law, they still can not sue spamhuis for 
>> blacklisting them, because end of the day, spamhuis are only express 
>> their opinion and they do not force anyone to use their opinion.
>> 
>> same for the location thing, they only express their opinion and they 
>> are not forcing anyone to believe in them...so aside from contact each 
>> content provider or maxmind their self, i really don't see much we can 
>> do about it.
>> 
>> but really...i don't think ripe member mailing list is something for 
>> this kind of discussion about private business...
>> 
>> On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 12:37 PM, Bill Lewis <Bill.lewis at kijoma.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>> hi,
>>> 
>>> this has become a problem for us recently. Customers reporting sites 
>>> such as netflix and spotify declaring that they are in a different 
>>> country.
>>> 
>>> The least this does is change their web pages to the language making 
>>> it near impossible to use, the worst is a complete denial of service 
>>> due to being outside the service coverage area.
>>> 
>>> We have had to ask customers of these services to pressure the 
>>> content providers to resolve their location database issues as the 
>>> likes of Maxmind are near impossible to gain any action out of from 
>>> our experience.
>>> 
>>> It seems if paying customers of the content providers growl at them 
>>> then the problem gets fixed a lot faster than an ISP contacting 
>>> Maxmind etc..
>>> 
>>> Surely it isn't hard for the likes of Maxmind to use the top level 
>>> country data from RIPE at least, before bolting on their localising 
>>> data?
>>> 
>>> I am sure there are malicious entities out there feeding these 
>>> databases with junk for the fun of it too..
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Bill Lewis
>>> Kijoma Broadband
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 28/05/2014 11:16, Sinan Özşekerci wrote:
>>> 
>>> I can’t understand why I have to spend time end effort to correct a 
>>> private company’s database and helping them to  earn more money where 
>>> they don’t mind to harm buissness of other ones with distributing 
>>> false information about them.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> This comes to me like some kind of blackmailing, harming you in first 
>>> place and forcing you to help them serve better and make more money.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> In our case , maximind is showing the location of  our IP subnets in 
>>> a “Village” which of the  name is the same as our company just by 
>>> coincidence, and is hundreds of km away from our HQ, in a totally 
>>> different city.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> So all these algorithms and fancy ways they use to retrieve these 
>>> “more specific” data is crap for me.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> As a LIR , I only know RIPE, and since RIPE is the Authority, I 
>>> expect them to rely on their own database which has the information 
>>> that I have control on, and not to some 3th party moneymakers.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Regards
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sinan ÖZŞEKERCİ
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> From: members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net 
>>> [mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Edward Dore
>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 12:41 PM
>>> To: admin at intl-alliance.com
>>> Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net
>>> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The RIPE database is not primarily concerned with GeoIP data, it is a 
>>> registry of who specific IP address blocks are allocated to and how 
>>> they can be contacted.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> MaxMind may draw some of their GeoIP data from the the RIR databases, 
>>> but they also get a lot of it from elsewhere, which allows them to be 
>>> more specific than just the country code contained in the RIPE 
>>> database.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Additionally, the RIPE database manual states the following for the 
>>> “country” field in the “inetnum” object:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> "It has not been specified what this country means. It cannot 
>>> therefore be used in any reliable way to map IP addresses to 
>>> countries"
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> As a customer of MaxMind, I depend on them providing me with 
>>> accurate, useful information about the location and use of IP 
>>> addresses for fraud screening etc. If MaxMind were to draw that 
>>> information only from the RIPE database, then not only would MaxMind 
>>> be pointless (as I could just get the information directly from RIPE) 
>>> but the accuracy would be significantly reduced (country level 
>>> instead of city level) and it would be easy for people to game the 
>>> system simply by changing their objects in the RIPE database to contain false information.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> MaxMind do not “make up” their information, they calculate it from 
>>> multiple sources and this is what MaxMind customers are buying - data 
>>> derived from multiple sources and processed by MaxMind’s algorithms.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Obviously these algorithms are never going to be 100% accurate, which 
>>> is why if people believe that the data contained in the MaxMind 
>>> database is inaccurate then they can submit suggestions for 
>>> corrections which MaxMind will then evaluate. MixMind are under no 
>>> obligation to use any corrections submitted and are quite right to 
>>> reject them if they believe that they are inaccurate or misleading 
>>> for any reason.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Accuracy of their database is important to MaxMinds’ customers and 
>>> thus to MaxMind. If their database is largely inaccurate, then it is 
>>> useless to their customers and MaxMind will lose business as a result.
>>> Obviously it is therefore in MaxMind’s best interest to keep their 
>>> database as accurate and up to date as possible.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> As for the open proxy vs VPN, I can completely understand why MaxMind 
>>> could detect VPNs as open proxy servers and as a user of their 
>>> minFraud service I would expect to treat the two in exactly the same 
>>> way because they are providing an identical function - to obscure the 
>>> location and details of the end user.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Edward Dore
>>> Freethought Internet
>>> 
>>> On 28 May 2014, at 10:02, admin at intl-alliance.com wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I depend on Maxmind using data obtained from a central registry. If 
>>> all ip tracing websites created their own databases with information 
>>> they made up, we wouldn't bother with the RIPE database any more 
>>> because it would become obsolete. We depend on ip tracing websites to 
>>> gather their information from authority sites, not the garbage they 
>>> produce on their own. And I'm only interested, as well as my 
>>> end-users, of seeing ip information that I've registered in the 
>>> appropriate places. Simply stating that "we're only interested in 
>>> end-user locations" rather than ip registration data, sits badly in 
>>> my mind. And it has also caught the attention of the RIPE NCC itself, 
>>> which just sent me the following email regarding this situation:
>>> 
>>> Dear Jared,
>>> 
>>> Thank you for your email.
>>> 
>>> We value your concern about correct registration details for internet 
>>> resources.
>>> 
>>> However the RIPE NCC has no authority on how private companies 
>>> compile their data and how much they take information from the RIPE 
>>> database in account.
>>> Did you contacted MaxMind directly and informed them about the 
>>> mismatching information they provide? Because finally if information 
>>> are incorrect then this is not only damaging companies like yours but 
>>> also the reputation of the providers of this data.
>>> 
>>> And I will forward your observation to my colleagues from the 
>>> stat.ripe.net team as there for Geolocation we are using data from 
>>> MaxMind.
>>> https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo
>>> 
>>> Then my colleagues will check if there could be any conflicting 
>>> information in our own tools.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Thank you again for bring up this topic.
>>> 
>>> Kind regards,
>>> 
>>> Marco Schmidt
>>> RIPE NCC
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 2014-05-28 09:52, Alfredo Sola wrote:
>>> 
>>> That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've 
>>> spent hours on their site manually updating all of their inaccuracies 
>>> over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw up 
>>> entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run 
>>> proxies period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never 
>>> proxies. And vpn services cannot be classified the same as open 
>>> proxies as they are totally different.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>            I think your issue is more a business model problem than 
>>> a registry or IP problem.
>>> 
>>>            What you are saying is that you depend on Maxmind 
>>> providing the location of your VPN servers / remote desktop servers 
>>> rather than the location of users computers connected to them.
>>> Maxmind, on the other hand, is saying that they provide the location 
>>> of users if they can, or will mark the location as unknown.
>>> 
>>>            So your business model depends on Maxmind agreeing to 
>>> provide to their customers something which is not what they pay to 
>>> obtain. And they refuse. I personally don't think they can be blamed 
>>> for that, but that's something between your company and Maxmind. And 
>>> nothing in this has to do with RIPE.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ----
>>> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss 
>>> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the 
>>> general
>>> page:
>>> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
>>> 
>>> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". 
>>> From here, you can add or remove addresses.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ----
>>> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss 
>>> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the 
>>> general
>>> page:
>>> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
>>> 
>>> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". 
>>> From here, you can add or remove addresses.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ----
>>> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss 
>>> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the 
>>> general
>>> page:
>>> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
>>> 
>>> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". 
>>> From here, you can add or remove addresses.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) shown above.
>> It may contain information that is privileged, confidential or 
>> otherwise protected from disclosure. Any review, dissemination or use 
>> of this transmission or its contents by persons other than the 
>> intended addressee(s) is strictly prohibited. If you have received 
>> this transmission in error, please notify this office immediately and 
>> e-mail the original at the sender's address above by replying to this 
>> message and including the text of the transmission received.
>> 
>> ----
>> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss 
>> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the 
>> general page:
>> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
>> 
>> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From 
>> here, you can add or remove addresses.
>> ----
>> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss 
>> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the 
>> general page:
>> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
>> 
>> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From 
>> here, you can add or remove addresses.
> 
> ----
> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page:
> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
> 
> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.
> <Mail Attachment.eml><Mail Attachment.eml><Mail Attachment.eml>----
> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss
> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page:
> https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/
> 
> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/members-discuss/attachments/20140528/da1822a1/attachment.html>