[members-discuss] [Ticket#2012072401002498] Probably Free /8 networks in RIPE region

Hi William


> Dear Paolo,
>
> I had a BT line in Italy (Now "Albacom" i think, AS8968) and i am not
> sure what you mean...

it's the opposite I guess, what was Albacom now it's BT

> We had a static IP - I also had a phoneline and Internet from WIND (Or
> Telecom Italia) under another contract which had *no* IP and was NATed
> (Hell, even multilevel NAT....)

As I said, it's a national law against terrorism. Yes you can do some 
form of NAT (afaik Fastweb does it) but you must do a "one customer NAT" 
with is quite long to explain.

But the law says "one contract = one public IP".

Long story anyway I can explain in private if you are curious ;)

(quite off topic on the list)

>
> I am also not sure what you refer to with the IPv6 problems - Just buy
> Level3, GBLX, Telecom Italia, Cogent or whatever transit - Why do you
> need to rely on the local telco? (Is there no Last Line Unbundling in
> Italy?)

not getting your point sorry :(

I have native IPv6 but I cannot connect with Telecom Italia for example, 
because they do not do IPv6 peering (last time I asked they wanted to 
tunnel me)

Not even sure that Wind or Fastweb are natively peering IPv6 in Italy 
(at least last time I asked, now I do not have interest considering that 
their customers will not be IPv6)

I was talking of the fact that big operators here will not give dual 
stack to end users. So yes, I can have my customers on IPv6 but they 
will never "talk in IPv6" with big-operator-customers

> Our ISP in Milano does IPv6 over DSL as well (and over FTTH, and in our
> case to our colocation).....

I guess our ISP is not Telecom Italia, Wind, or Fastweb or you have a 
business contract (i.e. not standard) :)

well IPv6 for end users and mobile customers will not happen for a 
loooong time in Italy if I consider what big Italian operators said so far

Obviously, if you pay extra for dual stack IPv6 (i.e. business premium 
contract) they say they do, but not for home/mobile users.

"Not today and not in the near future" this is what they said

>
> --
> William Weber | RIPE: WW | LIR: at.edisgmbh
> william at edisglobal.com <mailto:william at edisglobal.com> | william at edis.at
> <mailto:william at edis.at> | http://edis.at | http://as57169.net
> EDIS GmbH (AS57169) NOC
> Graz, Austria
>
> Am 27.07.2012 um 12:05 schrieb Paolo Di Francesco:
>
>> Hi William
>>
>>
>>> WIND uses by far *more* than 5mil IPs - They are the second largest
>>> access provider in Italy, in fact they are so short already that they
>>> run NAT now...
>>
>> I guess it's not the only net allocated to wind, but just to make things
>> clear regarding the IPv4-IPv6 situation in Italy:
>>
>> 1) at the current date each provider MUST allocate one public IPv4 for
>> each contract (not customer, contract, which means if you have one
>> company with 50 employees at minimum one public IPv4 must be allocated)
>> 2) NAT (=multiple customers beyond one public IP) with some form of
>> "connection tracking" has been proposed, but yet not accepted by the
>> Italian government
>> 3) the big telco told us that dual stack cannot be done and they will
>> never implement it so far because:
>> 3.a) there is no mobile device well supporting IPv6
>> 3.b) IPv6 traffic is insignificant, the traffic is only IPv4 (well if
>> they do not provider IPv6 to customers I see some barriers to have IPv6
>> traffic...)
>> 3.c) IPv6 WILL NOT HAPPEN for a looooong time, and they will NOT provide
>> dual stack
>> 3.d) xDSL modems do not support IPv6 (maybe they should change modem
>> brand, I don't know)
>> 3.e) operating systems are not supporting IPv6
>>
>> We asked them to give dual stack, but the message that I have heard is:
>> no only IPv4 and NAT is the solution for the future, then maybe in some
>> years (5? 10? 20??) we will reconsider IPv6
>>
>> Therefore I see small and medium ISP running dual stack to be "future
>> ready" while large operators in Italy will run IPv4 and NAT for a long,
>> long time.
>>
>> Now if RIPE will consider a dual fee for IPv4 and IPv6 I guess that it
>> will not help small LIRs to implement IPv6 and that will be a huge
>> damage for the whole community.
>>
>> It will be funny that small ISP are implementing IPv6 and maybe paying
>> more than big telcos.
>>
>> Regarding the IPv4-IPv6 policy, my personal opinion is that it's a
>> commercial war: the longer IPv6 dual stack or transition will take, the
>> better will be to keep the market closed and the current positions
>> untouched.
>>
>> Should we consider an extra fee if you do NOT use IPv6 for customers????
>>
>> But as I said, we should split the two discussions: one regarding IPv4
>> and IPv6 allocation (and mistakes of the past, when nobody knew what the
>> hell was an IP) and another one regarding RIPE fees. Not saying those
>> two things are not related just saying that IPv4 re-allocation policy
>> for huge systems should be taken into serious consideration
>>
>> As a last note: if Wind and other operators are using NAT and they are
>> happy with that (instead of implementing dual stack and migration
>> mechanisms) then they DO NOT NEED IPv4, and then then can give it back
>> to RIPE. If with one IPv4 you can put 1,000-10,000 customers, hey we are
>> 60 millions in Italy we need few public IPv4 for big LIRS, right?
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> Ing. Paolo Di Francesco
>>
>> Level7 s.r.l. unipersonale
>>
>> Sede operativa: Largo Montalto, 5 - 90144 Palermo
>>
>> C.F. e P.IVA  05940050825
>> Fax : +39-091-8772072
>> assistenza: (+39) 091-8776432
>> web: http://www.level7.it
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
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-- 


Ing. Paolo Di Francesco

Level7 s.r.l. unipersonale

Sede operativa: Largo Montalto, 5 - 90144 Palermo

C.F. e P.IVA  05940050825
Fax : +39-091-8772072
assistenza: (+39) 091-8776432
web: http://www.level7.it