[diversity] Proposal for anonymous gender metric question now on RIPE Labs

Hi Shane


On 20/06/2017 11:38, Shane Kerr wrote:
> Denis,
>
> At 2017-06-20 00:20:22 +0000
> denis walker <ripedenis at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Sorry for making this personal, but I grew up in a small working
>> class town where, had my sexuality been known at that time, people
>> would have kicked the s**t out of me. I had an older gay cousin and
>> even some people within the family made fun of him. But that was
>> nothing compared to what can happen to people in many parts of the
>> RIPE region if it is known they have any gender diversity issues. My
>> cousin was laughed at by some members of the family. In some places
>> in 2017, members of a family will murder relatives to protect the
>> 'honour' of their family.
> I feel a lot of sympathy for anyone living in an oppressive situation.
> I don't deny that people are tortured, killed, and their families
> harmed for many unjust reasons - including their gender identity.
>
>> There seems to be some strange disjoint here between 'collecting
>> data' and what this data actually means. As a software developer and
>> analyst I also love to play around with data and find out interesting
>> things. Especially when the results lead on to some significant
>> change or improvement. I did so much of that with the contents of the
>> RIPE Database for so many years. But we are not collecting details of
>> age and colour preferences for shoes. This is sensitive, personal
>> data. If it is leaked or hacked it can cost lives. I am not trying to
>> be melodramatic here. This is the reality of the age we are currently
>> living in.
> I don't think there is an issue. I disagree with your repeated
> assertion that it is especially sensitive and can cost lives.
>
> When I buy an airline ticket I have to say "Dhr." ("sir") or
> "Mevr." ("madam"). When I check into a hotel I have to hand over my
> passport, which has my sex on it. Many driver's licenses have sex on
> them. Swedish national identity number is different depending on
> whether you are a man or a female.
>
> I'm sure others on the list can think of dozens of more examples where
> your gender or sex are non-private.

In all of these examples you are referring to your biological gender. 
This is a simple binary option, male/female. It is set at birth, has 
legal significance and for many people cannot be changed no matter what 
happens later in your life. When you start to talk about gender 
diversity and fluidity you are into territory that some governments and 
some societies take great issue with. This is one of the things you are 
trying to measure and are asking people to (opt in to) specify.

>
> Further, as has been repeatedly pointed out, this is opt-in. Anyone who
> feels concerned should not opt-in.
>
> I know you feel like people will feel pressured to participate and put
> false information in, but I cannot imagine any scenario where we could
> make people feel 100% safe with an Internet-based registration system.
> So the only options we are left with are to not gather information
> because maybe someone might feel pressured to lie, or to go ahead with a
> reasonable balance of privacy & information gathering.

I don't have any issue with collecting this type of information, 
processing it and working to improve diversity at RIPE meetings. My 
issue is the way you propose to do it. Even here you have subconsciously 
linked the gathering of this information with the registration. And that 
is the problem. You are telling people that it is anonymous. But it 
isn't anonymous. There is a simple  cross reference point between this 
data and the identifiable registration data. Even if the RIPE NCC says 
"of course no one would make that cross reference", the fact that it is 
there means it is not anonymous. If you do it this way, you should not 
tell people it will be collected anonymously. You should tell people the 
results will be anonymised. That is significantly different.

>   
>> I don't know why we are even having to have this conversation. There
>> are reputable companies that will operate surveys and the data they
>> collect is disconnected from any identifiable data. Use one of them.
>> You simply cannot take short cuts with such sensitive data.
> We are having this conversation because there are differing opinions. I
> think that I understand your concerns, I just do not agree that they
> are valid.
>
> Nevertheless, I am interested to hear of what your suggestions are for
> such reputable companies, or at least what selection criteria you would
> recommend for choosing one.

I have no personal experience of organising such surveys. But I have sat 
in many presentations of staff survey results while at the RIPE NCC. As 
far as I could see, these companies managed the survey, processed the 
results and provided anonymous data back to the RIPE NCC. The criteria 
is that no one should have access to the raw data from both the survey 
and the registration.

cheers
denis

>
> Cheers,
>
> --
> Shane

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