[anti-abuse-wg] Astroturfing?

On Wed, Apr 03, 2019 at 02:47:27PM +0100, Carlos Friaas wrote:
>Too easy (you might have missed this one...):
>
>Dear group members from Portugal stated your support for 2019-03,
>Can you please provide some more arguments than your humble "+1" 
>statement? This is a working group, not a voting.

While it may have been better to address all the "+1" crowd, I'm
not sure this constitutes *discrimination*.

>The message was directed to a "group members from Portugal".
>Members from IE, IL, US, CZ and so on that made brief statements of 
>support were left out of this request.
>I can't understand why.

That may have just been because those have been seen here before.

That said, I agree with the general statement. Rather than "+1"
every supporter should provide *some* evidence that they've at
least *read* the proposal. For the avoidance of doubt, this means
*every* supporter, regardless of nationality or length of
subscription.

>(...)
>>I've long argued that all policy should only be discussed in
>>ap-wg as I don't think this limited an audience should make
>>policy with far-reaching consequences. Alas, everyone wants to
>>rule in Hell rather than serve in Heaven.
>
>What you argue is _not_ "current rules" or the PDP.

It used to be until the charter was changed. I didn't agree with
that then, I don't agree with it now. For exactly the reasons
that are now becoming evident.

>>Well, that gives me:
>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet)#Meatpuppet
>>
>>So the term "Astroturfing" is technically incorrect as that
>>implies fictitious entities with some commercial interest behind
>>it.
>
>So you're now going further than attacking one nationality, aiming at 
>all those who expressed support for 2019-03? (i.e. disagreeing with 
>your view).

Not all. Only those who suddenly turn up, "+1" and then disappear
again, as they undoubtedly will (or perhaps until *your* next
proposal comes up?)

>I'm not going reply with a different Wikipedia URL, but i suspect you 
>know which one i'm thinking about :-))

No, I don't have a clue. Enlighten me?

>>Nobody has said that and new participants are always welcome, the
>>more know about this the better.
>
>It's not only about "knowing" it's also being able to support or 
>oppose any proposal (present or future). For me the keyword is 
>"participation".

That was implied. My contention is (and I've been expressing that
many times before) that this wg is not representative of the RIPE
community but to only a small element of it namely "anti-abuse
warriors". Thus I would very much welcome increased participation
in this wg because whatever gets cooked up here affects ALL OF
US.

What I do not welcome is "support" that takes the form of
subscribing here, plonking down "+1" and then vanishing into
obscurity again. 
Which is (at least the Wikipedia) definition of a meat-puppet.

>You might be rushing to judgements.
>You might draw that conclusion if there is more to discuss on the 
>table 6 months or 1 year from now, and people stay silent or if they 
>left the mailing list -- which is something noone can evaluate on such 
>a short notice.

Easy. judge the worth of support at least in part on previous
contributions, and I fervently hope this is what the chairs are
doing. 

If not, I would like the opportunity to rise a hundred opponents
to each provide a "-1"...

rgds,
SL


>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Wed, 3 Apr 2019, Michele Neylon - Blacknight wrote:
>>>
>>>>All
>>>>
>>>>Is someone encouraging astroturfing?
>>>>
>>>>The number of either new or inactive members of this list who 
>>>>have posted one line messages in support of the recent policy 
>>>>discussion has reached insane levels
>>>>
>>>>Regards
>>>>
>>>>Michele???
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Mr Michele Neylon
>>>>Blacknight Solutions
>>>>Hosting, Colocation & Domains
>>>>https://www.blacknight.com/
>>>>https://blacknight.blog/
>>>>Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
>>>>Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>>>>Personal blog: https://michele.blog/
>>>>Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/
>>>>-------------------------------
>>>>Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business 
>>>>Park,Sleaty
>>>>Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland  Company No.: 370845
>>>>
>>>>
>>