[anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse

Hi Jordi,

I guess his point is the mail server, to communicate, needs an IP address. 
Then, that IP address belongs to a netblock, and should be registered 
(also on whois, but on a different database...).

And he is ranting about the lack of abuse contacts related to IP netblocks 
-- unfortunately there are a lot missing or incorrect...

Carlos


On Tue, 29 May 2018, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg wrote:

> Well, we disagree in the definition of abuse maybe?
>
> You can find many definitions of this:
>
> "Spamming is the abuse of electronic messaging systems to send unsolicited bulk messages, which are generally undesired"
>
> So, spam is abuse, and I don't need to know IPs to send spam. The mail server will use DNS to find them.
>
> Regards,
> Jordi
>
>
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces at ripe.net> en nombre de ox <andre at ox.co.za>
> Organización: ox.co.za
> Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 15:57
> Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg at ripe.net>
> Asunto: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse
>
>
>    I am so happy that you are asking this question :)
>
>    This is what causes much confusion with people, including experienced
>    netadmins, sysadmins and many very technically advanced people.
>
>    You can use any email address as an example: anti-abuse-wg at ripe.net
>
>    Please think about it for a second:
>
>    How would you go about sending spam to this email address without using
>    an IP number?
>
>    It is not possible for Internet abuse to exist - without an IP number.
>
>    So, for this wg : EVERYTHING that is abuse is powered by IP numbers.
>
>    Andre
>
>    On Tue, 29 May 2018 15:51:38 +0200
>    JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg at ripe.net> wrote:
>
>    > How come you can't send spam without the IP?
>    >
>    > I can look for new registered domains, use whois for catching the
>    > emails that appear there, and then spam them.
>    >
>    > This is something that I experience everytime I register a new
>    > domain, tons of spams to the whois recently created email contacts.
>    >
>    > Regards,
>    > Jordi
>    >
>    >
>    >
>    > -----Mensaje original-----
>    > De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces at ripe.net> en nombre de ox
>    > <andre at ox.co.za> Organización: ox.co.za
>    > Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 15:39
>    > Para: <anti-abuse-wg at ripe.net>
>    > Asunto: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse
>    >
>    >
>    >     Please correct me if you think I am wrong:
>    >
>    >     1.
>    >     You cannot send spam without an IP number.
>    >
>    >     2.
>    >     You cannot do any abuse without an IP number.
>    >
>    >
>    >     I can do a whois on any.com or some.eu and have a tech or abuse
>    > email address and WORKING registrar contact information.
>    >
>    >     I cannot do a whois on ALL ripe assigned ipv4 resources and get
>    >     accurate and/or working resource contact information.
>    >
>    >
>    >     So, where the problem is - is easy to see, no?
>    >
>    >     Andre
>    >
>    >
>    >     On Tue, 29 May 2018 15:12:27 +0200
>    >     JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg at ripe.net>
>    > wrote:
>    >     > I consider an abuse the fact of collecting emails and sending
>    >     > spam. Also, if you have a domain, you can see what IPs are
>    >     > related to it for other kinds of abuses.
>    >     >
>    >     > Regards,
>    >     > Jordi
>    >     >
>    >     >
>    >     >
>    >     > -----Mensaje original-----
>    >     > De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces at ripe.net> en nombre de
>    >     > ox <andre at ox.co.za> Organización: ox.co.za
>    >     > Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 14:32
>    >     > Para: <anti-abuse-wg at ripe.net>
>    >     > Asunto: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email
>    >     > abuse
>    >     >
>    >     >
>    >     >     Abuse has nothing to do with a domain name.
>    >     >
>    >     >     Nobody can abuse anyone armed only with a domain name.
>    >     >
>    >     >     Without using an actual IP number, a domain name can do
>    >     > nothing.
>    >     >     Protecting the privacy of a domain registrant is absolutely
>    >     > correct.
>    >     >     The trouble is that network operators are resistant to
>    >     > accept the responsibility (costs, issues, trouble) of managing
>    >     > abuse
>    >     >     Even if you do a whois right now, you will find a functional
>    >     > registrar abuse email address.
>    >     >
>    >     >     The same cannot yet be said for the resources assigned by
>    >     > this RR
>    >     >     Andre
>    >     >
>    >     >
>    >     >     On Tue, 29 May 2018 14:00:44 +0200
>    >     >     JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg
>    >     > <anti-abuse-wg at ripe.net> wrote:
>    >     >     > Whois, as everything in the life, has good and bad things.
>    >     >     > Against: Privacy invaded. In fact, when you register a new
>    >     >     > domain and you associate a visible email to it, in a
>    >     >     > matter of hours, you get spam.
>    >     >     > Pro: If it is a real email with humans behind, it
>    >     >     > facilitates the resolution of abuse cases.
>    >     >     > The balance is always difficult ...
>    >     >     > Regards,
>    >     >     > Jordi
>    >     >
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     > De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces at ripe.net> en
>    >     >     > nombre de Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>    >     >     > Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 13:49 Para: Suresh
>    >     >     > Ramasubramanian <ops.lists at gmail.com>,
>    >     >     > "anti-abuse-wg at ripe.net" <anti-abuse-wg at ripe.net> Asunto:
>    >     >     > Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     > Even in those cases, whois is but one tool that helps
>    >     >     > identify bad actors by means of violating privacy rights
>    >     >     > of millions. There are other tools, like DNS traces,
>    >     >     > reviews of hosting infrastructures used, etc. all of
>    >     >     > which will continue to be available for the uses you
>    >     >     > refer to.
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     > And maybe it is time to ensure law enforcement is better
>    >     >     > equipped to deal with such issues earlier and faster. Up
>    >     >     > to now, governments have been afforded the luxury of
>    >     >     > being able to underfund such efforts as others were doing
>    >     >     > their jobs for them. Maybe this will lead to better law
>    >     >     > enforcement and international cooperation.
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     > Best,
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     > Volker
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     > Am 29.05.2018 um 13:34 schrieb Suresh Ramasubramanian:
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     > This unfortunately is entirely wrong and short sighted
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     > All security practitioners protect our respective
>    >     >     > services and networks against a wide variety of threats
>    >     >     > including malware and phish campaigns.
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     > Very few of those go on to be referred to law enforcement
>    >     >     > and that only after an extensive dossier is built
>    >     >     > internally to show that the perps in question justify a -
>    >     >     > frequently cross border - law enforcement action.
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     > Security and protecting user privacy go hand in hand and
>    >     >     > I wish more people realised that, and maybe also realised
>    >     >     > the resource and administrative lconstraints and limits
>    >     >     > law enforcement is saddled with
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     > From: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces at ripe.net> on
>    >     >     > behalf of Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net>
>    >     >     > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2018 4:06:18 PM To:
>    >     >     > anti-abuse-wg at ripe.net Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR
>    >     >     > - positive effects on email abuse
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     > Wow, the level of narrowmindedness and fearmongering is
>    >     >     > high with this one.
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     > Crime online will likely not increase due to GDPR. It may
>    >     >     > be more difficult to detect and take action against due
>    >     >     > to the loss of one tool amongst many, but ultimately that
>    >     >     > tool was illegal to begin with as it violated the rights
>    >     >     > to privacy of millions of domain owners.
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     > "Private researchers" and other vigilantes or rent-a-cops
>    >     >     > will indeed have a more difficult time to obtain such
>    >     >     > data as they will finally have to do so by legal means,
>    >     >     > but then they are in an untenable position anyway, taking
>    >     >     > upon themselves functions that should be fulfilled by
>    >     >     > actual law enforcement.
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     > Ultimately, private data if internet users no longer being
>    >     >     > public will lead to better registration data for those
>    >     >     > with a right to access it. Those with no such rights will
>    >     >     > have to figure out alternate routes to do their jobs that
>    >     >     > does not violate the rights of millions.
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     > Best,
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     > Volker
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     >
>    >     >     > Am 28.05.2018 um 21:13 schrieb Ronald F. Guilmette:
>    >     >     > > ox <andre at ox.co.za> wrote:
>    >     >     > >
>    >     >     > >> Firstly I would like to comment that the
>    >     >     > >> multinationals and their funded trade groups (and
>    >     >     > >> their lobby orgs) shouted from the rooftops that if
>    >     >     > >> the GDPR came into effect, Internet in the EU would
>    >     >     > >> collapse and there would be digital doom and
>    >     >     > >> gloom.
>    >     >     > > I am not a multinational.  I am an individual volunteer
>    >     >     > > anti-abuse researcher. And yet even -I- have told
>    >     >     > > everyone I know that the disappearance of public WHOIS
>    >     >     > > is and will be an epic catastrophy. If there was
>    >     >     > > cybercrime on the Internet before, it will be
>    >     >     > > increased, going forward, by tenfold.
>    >     >     > >> How wrong they were (hindsight is perfect - as we can
>    >     >     > >> all clearly see)
>    >     >     > > Be patient.  The change has only just occurred.
>    >     >     > >
>    >     >     > >> The EU has truly become a world and global leader in
>    >     >     > >> the reclamation of individual rights and the free
>    >     >     > >> Internet.
>    >     >     > > Here on this side of the pond, one usually has to turn
>    >     >     > > on Fox News in order to be treated to this level of
>    >     >     > > rubbish.
>    >     >     > >
>    >     >     > > The only thing that has happened is that private
>    >     >     > > researchers the world over have been effectively
>    >     >     > > blinded due to the supreme arogance and idiocy of
>    >     >     > > europeans... europeans who, in their religious fervor,
>    >     >     > > have come to view it as their holy obligation to foist
>    >     >     > > their demented notions onto the rest of the world,
>    >     >     > > whether any of the rest of us like it or not.
>    >     >     > >
>    >     >     > > Meanwhile the malevolent forces of state-sponsored
>    >     >     > > intrigue and violation of human rights are and shall
>    >     >     > > remain totally unfettered and unaffected by GDPR, as
>    >     >     > > they will be the first ones to obtain special
>    >     >     > > exemptions allowing them to continue to see WHOIS data.
>    >     >     > > The CIA, NSA, BDN, and FSB are undoubtedly celebrating
>    >     >     > > the arrival of GDPR, as it further entrenches their
>    >     >     > > special status at the expense of the great unwashes
>    >     >     > > masses.
>    >     >     > >
>    >     >     > > Friday was a sad day for both transparency and
>    >     >     > > democracy, but all across the globe both criminals and
>    >     >     > > statists undoubtedly celebrated it with toasts of
>    >     >     > > champaign.
>    >     >     > >
>    >     >     > >
>    >     >     > > Regards,
>    >     >     > > rfg
>    >     >     > >
>    >     >     >
>    >     >
>    >     >
>    >     >
>    >     >
>    >     >
>    >     >
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