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[anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email abuse
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ox
andre at ox.co.za
Tue May 29 16:27:33 CEST 2018
On Tue, 29 May 2018 16:23:13 +0200 Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net> wrote: > OK, let'S ban IP numbers then. Clearly they are evil! ;-) > one has to look how certain multinationals are using IP numbers in what they see as a war. spammers also do this, they send legit email from the same IP number as they pump & dump. but, a small ISP is easy to block if that ISP ignores abuse complaints. Google is impossible to block - yet they also ignore abuse complaints. Outlook.com is impossible to block - yet they are completely oblivious to abuse complaints. see? > > Am 29.05.2018 um 16:12 schrieb ox: > > Jordi, > > > > This is a technical statement, it is not a pov (point of view) - it > > is a simple and salient fact: > > > > No abuse on the Internet is possible without an IP number. > > > > In your example: > > > > the mail server = the IP number. > > > > so the abuse originates from the mail server IP number. > > > > the DNS = IP number > > > > DNS is that service that translates names into numbers, so that you > > are able to deliver your spam. > > > > a domain by itself can do nothing. > > > > hth > > > > Andre > > > > > > On Tue, 29 May 2018 16:03:41 +0200 > > JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg at ripe.net> > > wrote: > >> Well, we disagree in the definition of abuse maybe? > >> > >> You can find many definitions of this: > >> > >> "Spamming is the abuse of electronic messaging systems to send > >> unsolicited bulk messages, which are generally undesired" > >> > >> So, spam is abuse, and I don't need to know IPs to send spam. The > >> mail server will use DNS to find them. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Jordi > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Mensaje original----- > >> De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces at ripe.net> en nombre de ox > >> <andre at ox.co.za> Organización: ox.co.za > >> Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 15:57 > >> Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg > >> <anti-abuse-wg at ripe.net> Asunto: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - > >> positive effects on email abuse > >> > >> > >> I am so happy that you are asking this question :) > >> > >> This is what causes much confusion with people, including > >> experienced netadmins, sysadmins and many very technically advanced > >> people. > >> You can use any email address as an example: > >> anti-abuse-wg at ripe.net > >> Please think about it for a second: > >> > >> How would you go about sending spam to this email address > >> without using an IP number? > >> > >> It is not possible for Internet abuse to exist - without an IP > >> number. > >> So, for this wg : EVERYTHING that is abuse is powered by IP > >> numbers. > >> Andre > >> > >> On Tue, 29 May 2018 15:51:38 +0200 > >> JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg > >> <anti-abuse-wg at ripe.net> wrote: > >> > How come you can't send spam without the IP? > >> > > >> > I can look for new registered domains, use whois for > >> > catching the emails that appear there, and then spam them. > >> > > >> > This is something that I experience everytime I register a > >> > new domain, tons of spams to the whois recently created > >> > email contacts. > >> > > >> > Regards, > >> > Jordi > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -----Mensaje original----- > >> > De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces at ripe.net> en > >> > nombre de ox <andre at ox.co.za> Organización: ox.co.za > >> > Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 15:39 > >> > Para: <anti-abuse-wg at ripe.net> > >> > Asunto: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on email > >> > abuse > >> > > >> > > >> > Please correct me if you think I am wrong: > >> > > >> > 1. > >> > You cannot send spam without an IP number. > >> > > >> > 2. > >> > You cannot do any abuse without an IP number. > >> > > >> > > >> > I can do a whois on any.com or some.eu and have a tech > >> > or abuse email address and WORKING registrar contact > >> > information. > >> > > >> > I cannot do a whois on ALL ripe assigned ipv4 resources > >> > and get accurate and/or working resource contact > >> > information. > >> > > >> > > >> > So, where the problem is - is easy to see, no? > >> > > >> > Andre > >> > > >> > > >> > On Tue, 29 May 2018 15:12:27 +0200 > >> > JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg > >> > <anti-abuse-wg at ripe.net> wrote: > >> > > I consider an abuse the fact of collecting emails and > >> > > sending spam. Also, if you have a domain, you can see > >> > > what IPs are related to it for other kinds of abuses. > >> > > > >> > > Regards, > >> > > Jordi > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > -----Mensaje original----- > >> > > De: anti-abuse-wg <anti-abuse-wg-bounces at ripe.net> en > >> > > nombre de ox <andre at ox.co.za> Organización: ox.co.za > >> > > Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 14:32 > >> > > Para: <anti-abuse-wg at ripe.net> > >> > > Asunto: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on > >> > > email abuse > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Abuse has nothing to do with a domain name. > >> > > > >> > > Nobody can abuse anyone armed only with a domain > >> > > name. > >> > > > >> > > Without using an actual IP number, a domain name > >> > > can do nothing. > >> > > Protecting the privacy of a domain registrant is > >> > > absolutely correct. > >> > > The trouble is that network operators are > >> > > resistant to accept the responsibility (costs, > >> > > issues, trouble) of managing abuse > >> > > Even if you do a whois right now, you will find a > >> > > functional registrar abuse email address. > >> > > > >> > > The same cannot yet be said for the resources > >> > > assigned by this RR > >> > > Andre > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > On Tue, 29 May 2018 14:00:44 +0200 > >> > > JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via anti-abuse-wg > >> > > <anti-abuse-wg at ripe.net> wrote: > >> > > > Whois, as everything in the life, has good and > >> > > > bad things. Against: Privacy invaded. In fact, > >> > > > when you register a new domain and you > >> > > > associate a visible email to it, in a matter of > >> > > > hours, you get spam. Pro: If it is a real email > >> > > > with humans behind, it facilitates the > >> > > > resolution of abuse cases. The balance is > >> > > > always difficult ... Regards, > >> > > > Jordi > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > De: anti-abuse-wg > >> > > > <anti-abuse-wg-bounces at ripe.net> en nombre de > >> > > > Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net> > >> > > > Fecha: martes, 29 de mayo de 2018, 13:49 Para: > >> > > > Suresh Ramasubramanian <ops.lists at gmail.com>, > >> > > > "anti-abuse-wg at ripe.net" > >> > > > <anti-abuse-wg at ripe.net> Asunto: Re: > >> > > > [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR - positive effects on > >> > > > email abuse > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Even in those cases, whois is but one tool that > >> > > > helps identify bad actors by means of violating > >> > > > privacy rights of millions. There are other > >> > > > tools, like DNS traces, reviews of hosting > >> > > > infrastructures used, etc. all of which will > >> > > > continue to be available for the uses you refer > >> > > > to. > >> > > > > >> > > > And maybe it is time to ensure law enforcement > >> > > > is better equipped to deal with such issues > >> > > > earlier and faster. Up to now, governments have > >> > > > been afforded the luxury of being able to > >> > > > underfund such efforts as others were doing > >> > > > their jobs for them. Maybe this will lead to > >> > > > better law enforcement and international > >> > > > cooperation. > >> > > > > >> > > > Best, > >> > > > > >> > > > Volker > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Am 29.05.2018 um 13:34 schrieb Suresh > >> > > > Ramasubramanian: > >> > > > > >> > > > This unfortunately is entirely wrong and short > >> > > > sighted > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > All security practitioners protect our > >> > > > respective services and networks against a wide > >> > > > variety of threats including malware and phish > >> > > > campaigns. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Very few of those go on to be referred to law > >> > > > enforcement and that only after an extensive > >> > > > dossier is built internally to show that the > >> > > > perps in question justify a - frequently cross > >> > > > border - law enforcement action. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Security and protecting user privacy go hand in > >> > > > hand and I wish more people realised that, and > >> > > > maybe also realised the resource and > >> > > > administrative lconstraints and limits law > >> > > > enforcement is saddled with > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > From: anti-abuse-wg > >> > > > <anti-abuse-wg-bounces at ripe.net> on behalf of > >> > > > Volker Greimann <vgreimann at key-systems.net> > >> > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2018 4:06:18 PM To: > >> > > > anti-abuse-wg at ripe.net Subject: Re: > >> > > > [anti-abuse-wg] GDPR > >> > > > - positive effects on email abuse > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Wow, the level of narrowmindedness and > >> > > > fearmongering is high with this one. > >> > > > > >> > > > Crime online will likely not increase due to > >> > > > GDPR. It may be more difficult to detect and > >> > > > take action against due to the loss of one tool > >> > > > amongst many, but ultimately that tool was > >> > > > illegal to begin with as it violated the rights > >> > > > to privacy of millions of domain owners. > >> > > > > >> > > > "Private researchers" and other vigilantes or > >> > > > rent-a-cops will indeed have a more difficult > >> > > > time to obtain such data as they will finally > >> > > > have to do so by legal means, but then they are > >> > > > in an untenable position anyway, taking upon > >> > > > themselves functions that should be fulfilled > >> > > > by actual law enforcement. > >> > > > > >> > > > Ultimately, private data if internet users no > >> > > > longer being public will lead to better > >> > > > registration data for those with a right to > >> > > > access it. Those with no such rights will have > >> > > > to figure out alternate routes to do their jobs > >> > > > that does not violate the rights of millions. > >> > > > > >> > > > Best, > >> > > > > >> > > > Volker > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Am 28.05.2018 um 21:13 schrieb Ronald F. > >> > > > Guilmette: > >> > > > > ox <andre at ox.co.za> wrote: > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> Firstly I would like to comment that the > >> > > > >> multinationals and their funded trade groups > >> > > > >> (and their lobby orgs) shouted from the > >> > > > >> rooftops that if the GDPR came into effect, > >> > > > >> Internet in the EU would collapse and there > >> > > > >> would be digital doom and gloom. > >> > > > > I am not a multinational. I am an individual > >> > > > > volunteer anti-abuse researcher. And yet even > >> > > > > -I- have told everyone I know that the > >> > > > > disappearance of public WHOIS is and will be > >> > > > > an epic catastrophy. If there was cybercrime > >> > > > > on the Internet before, it will be increased, > >> > > > > going forward, by tenfold. > >> > > > >> How wrong they were (hindsight is perfect - > >> > > > >> as we can all clearly see) > >> > > > > Be patient. The change has only just > >> > > > > occurred. > >> > > > >> The EU has truly become a world and global > >> > > > >> leader in the reclamation of individual > >> > > > >> rights and the free Internet. > >> > > > > Here on this side of the pond, one usually > >> > > > > has to turn on Fox News in order to be > >> > > > > treated to this level of rubbish. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > The only thing that has happened is that > >> > > > > private researchers the world over have been > >> > > > > effectively blinded due to the supreme > >> > > > > arogance and idiocy of europeans... europeans > >> > > > > who, in their religious fervor, have come to > >> > > > > view it as their holy obligation to foist > >> > > > > their demented notions onto the rest of the > >> > > > > world, whether any of the rest of us like it > >> > > > > or not. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Meanwhile the malevolent forces of > >> > > > > state-sponsored intrigue and violation of > >> > > > > human rights are and shall remain totally > >> > > > > unfettered and unaffected by GDPR, as they > >> > > > > will be the first ones to obtain special > >> > > > > exemptions allowing them to continue to see > >> > > > > WHOIS data. The CIA, NSA, BDN, and FSB are > >> > > > > undoubtedly celebrating the arrival of GDPR, > >> > > > > as it further entrenches their special status > >> > > > > at the expense of the great unwashes masses. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Friday was a sad day for both transparency and > >> > > > > democracy, but all across the globe both > >> > > > > criminals and statists undoubtedly celebrated > >> > > > > it with toasts of champaign. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Regards, > >> > > > > rfg > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > ********************************************** > >> > > IPv4 is over > >> > > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > >> > > http://www.consulintel.es > >> > > The IPv6 Company > >> > > > >> > > This electronic message contains information which > >> > > may be privileged or confidential. The information is > >> > > intended to be for the exclusive use of the > >> > > individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty > >> > > authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use > >> > > of the contents of this information, even if > >> > > partially, including attached files, is strictly > >> > > prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. > >> > > If you are not the intended recipient be aware that > >> > > any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the > >> > > contents of this information, even if partially, > >> > > including attached files, is strictly prohibited, > >> > > will be considered a criminal offense, so you must > >> > > reply to the original sender to inform about this > >> > > communication and delete it. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ********************************************** > >> > IPv4 is over > >> > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > >> > http://www.consulintel.es > >> > The IPv6 Company > >> > > >> > This electronic message contains information which may be > >> > privileged or confidential. The information is intended to > >> > be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above > >> > and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, > >> > distribution or use of the contents of this information, > >> > even if partially, including attached files, is strictly > >> > prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If > >> > you are not the intended recipient be aware that any > >> > disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of > >> > this information, even if partially, including attached > >> > files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a > >> > criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender > >> > to inform about this communication and delete it. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ********************************************** > >> IPv4 is over > >> Are you ready for the new Internet ? > >> http://www.consulintel.es > >> The IPv6 Company > >> > >> This electronic message contains information which may be > >> privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for > >> the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further > >> non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use > >> of the contents of this information, even if partially, including > >> attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a > >> criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware > >> that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents > >> of this information, even if partially, including attached files, > >> is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so > >> you must reply to the original sender to inform about this > >> communication and delete it. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > >
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