[anti-abuse-wg] RBL Discussion Update

On Wed, 1 Feb 2017 13:20:59 +0000
HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker <svenk at xs4all.nl> wrote:
> "the supermarket on the corner supplies spammers with food, so they
> stay alive - they are an accessory to spam being sent - let's make a 
> blacklist of supermarkets and block their doors"
> that, is your argument. right there. completely ignorant of the fact 
> that the spammers just go to another supermarket in that case. :P 

yes, you are starting to get it now.

this is where modern society is headed :)

If my culture or my society does not accept slavery and there is a trusted list 
where the pro slavery resources are conveniently listed, we can easily DROP.

Similarly, if we do not like supermarkets and you host supermarkets,
we will DROP everything from you, even if you are the entire USA  :)

previously you said:
> the attached leaked executive order by trump of the USA, nicely 
> describes our national policy in terms of 'cyber adversaries' as
> well. and spamhaus is a cyber adversary. they have firmly established 
> themselves as a terrorist group in 2013. when they managed to extort
> 3 transits in a row into breach of contract, resulting in total
> downtime for the national networks of the republic cyberbunker and
> all of it's front operations.
> they shall be treated as such. no matter -what- the collateral is.
>   
you should make your own policies and clearly publish them somewhere.

for example that you are pro slavery, pro kiddie porn, pro terrorism,
or whatever (maybe also include a convenient list of your resources, or 
publish an easy bgp feed, then eveyrone that does not like what your
policies are can more easily DROP, instead of having to actually use a
third party list :)

if you read, right at the bottom of my first post on the RBL thread,
you will note that one of the questions were the needs of society for
specialized lists. As the Internet is becoming "walled off gardens" of
an increasing nationalistic society, civil society still needs to
evolve RBL technology. As it stands right now child porn is grouped in
with copyright abuse and then there are the strange funding from
country intelligence agencies for seemingly innocent projects...

So, the question is, do we need to know what RBL or DNSBL (as there are
differences in the foundational tech) we are trusting and for what type
of listing (or currently, general listing)?

In your marketing for Spamhaus, I have to note that they list
phish and child porn all simply as Spam, and same: 'network abuse'  is
what? machine learning bots? (gbbots, nodes or node controllers, or
what?) question of course really being, does society need it?  (or are we still
evolving to it, as in your donkey carts on the autobahn example(s).) 

There are vast differences in the different types of abuse. To put this
in context of your ravings: In your opinion, does Spamhaus need more
specialized BGP feeds, more specialized dnsbl, etc. - or are the
differences, currently available, adequate?

My opinion is that we need (and are ready for) many specialized lists,
eg for bots, not just a bot list, but listings of what bots are where
(sometimes some bots are in the same place), what would be nice is a
control node list, older bots (brute), and all the other nice unicorny
things. I also think that  many other distinctions in DNSBL, will (or would) be
useful. 

Andre




> 
> 
> On 01 فبر, 2017 م 01:17, HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker wrote:
> > transporting an electrocution device and after that a dead body in
> > the trunk of a rented car doesn't make any of that the
> > 'responsibility' of either the road network operator nor the car
> > rental company.
> >
> > and that's a good thing.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 01 فبر, 2017 م 01:13, HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker wrote:
> >>
> >> On 01 فبر, 2017 ص 10:47, ox wrote:
> >>
> >> responsibility fro what they are pushing (CONTENT) - pushing child
> >> pornography, slavery and a whole buch of evil is simply not
> >> acceptable.
> >>
> >> all of this is respective to your cultural interpretation. we 
> >> consider stealing from hostile banks a GREAT thing.
> >> arr matey, take the money back! fuck the banks. why help the
> >> banks. lol. they never did anything for us...
> >>
> >> child pornography - in as far as they depict actual rape, should
> >> be about as illegal as pictures of a bank robbery or murderscene.
> >> - in as far as it's rape in the first fucking place. the
> >> definition of a 'child' also is rather vague, in our culture
> >> anyone of any age that doesn't have an iq of over 120 is
> >> considered either a child or retarded, in yours, maybe not, in
> >> others the average life expectancy is 20-30 years and you can't
> >> hardly expect them to only consider people 'grown up' and capable
> >> of making their own decisions until they are 14/16/18/21/24 by
> >> which time they usually already are dead... considering children
> >> 'retarded' until they just so happen to be 18 is common in
> >> -christian- cultures, not in ours. an 8 year old can perfectly
> >> well decide for himself wether he -wants- to work as a porn actor,
> >> or not. if they don't know what they want in life by the time they
> >> are 6 they -never will-. it's as simple as that. in either case,
> >> discriminating against a genetically defined sexual preference
> >> group is wrong and when they are looking at porn they are not out
> >> there committing rape. making a whole lot of fuzz about some sex,
> >> also turns -rape victims- into -murder victims- as murder victims
> >> don't talk. the whole 'child porn' and 'rape' thing should not be
> >> such a big deal as it is frequently made, after all it's just some
> >> fucking sex. so you had a dick up your arse. who cares. get used
> >> to it, you'll probably be taxed like a slave all your life which
> >> is FAR worse than some sex. nobody is talking about -that-. lol.
> >> also one law against rape suffices for all cases of rape, no need
> >> to specifically mention children anywhere. it's either rape, or
> >> it's not. not linked to 'age'. (yes i'm sorry, even if you grow to
> >> be 140 years old, we still don't consider you human if your iq is
> >> under 120 - with us, that is not linked to 'age' - we also don't
> >> have the christian tendencies to keep our kids stupid and badly
> >> informed - our kids drive cars by the time they are 7 and run
> >> companies by the time they are 10 - no intention whatsoever to
> >> deter them from having sex, looking at porn, etc. that's trying to
> >> deter evolution. ;)
> >>
> >> slavery: a cultural concept. not much difference between the roman 
> >> empire, and the modern interpretation of the word 'citizen'... the 
> >> state happily steals more than half of whatever your citizens
> >> make, so, they are slaves. it never was abolished, not even in
> >> your culture, they just changed the word for it.
> >>
> >> as for 'content'... NO. none of that is of our concern... we
> >> forward packets and if we were to block things or disconnect
> >> things there is a whole lot of OTHER THINGS we would block, BEFORE
> >> getting to the points you addressed, if -ever-. let's start with
> >> the culture pollution by the american 'media' ... hmm yep, let's
> >> block that. facebook? google? spy platforms of the enemy. block
> >> them as well. etc... all of that -before- even starting to look at
> >> 'child pornography'.
> >>
> >> yes we have had some firewalls in the past... most of them
> >> included everything owned by members of the RIAA and MPAA ranging
> >> from their propaganda shit to their office networks. things like
> >> that are of far higher priority to us than 'childporn'... but we
> >> do such things for OUR OWN networks, not the networks we rent out
> >> to customers, on those, we don't interfere with content... they
> >> can even have port 25 opened if they want to but none of them seem
> >> to be in the 'mail business' anyway. lol.
> >>
> >> now, if we would start to filter everything you and your culture 
> >> doesn't seem to like we must also do that for everyone else out 
> >> there... filter american crap for iran, filter falun gong, porn
> >> and casinos for china, filter porn for thailand, filter
> >> 'everything commercial' for the commies, etc.
> >>
> >> your cultural interpretations cannot be a reason to disconnect 
> >> anything. capiche. if you don't wanna see something, don't look at 
> >> it. d0h.
> >>
> >>> On Wed, 1 Feb 2017 10:23:07 +0000
> >>> HRH Prince Sven Olaf von CyberBunker <svenk at xs4all.nl> wrote:
> >>>> On 01 فبر, 2017 ص 05:10, ox wrote:
> >>>>> For those that do use smtp, and to identify those isps that
> >>>>> refuse to stop abusing others, there needs to be a list.
> >>>>>
> >>>> that's all very cute... as long as that 'list of isps' would
> >>>> remain
> >>> <snip snip>
> >>>> going 'spamhaus is now listing OUR networks, our sales department
> >>>> can't send mail to 1/3rd of the world and they demand we
> >>>> disconnect
> >>> luckily for you, smtp is dead and non important to you - so you
> >>> can Facebook your clients :)
> >>>
> >>> Personally, I do not want emails from people (isps) who enable
> >>> kiddie porn, spam, phish or other rubbish - so I CHOOSE to use
> >>> RBLs that I trust and that I know are operated fairly and
> >>> ethically.
> >>>
> >>> If isps want to be paid for pushing packets they need to take
> >>> responsibility fro what they are pushing (CONTENT) - pushing child
> >>> pornography, slavery and a whole buch of evil is simply not
> >>> acceptable.
> >>>
> >>> It is not acceptable to say: I push traffic and I do not care
> >>> what it is or how it is destroying little kids or the lives of
> >>> innocent people.
> >>>
> >>> Andre
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
>