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[anti-abuse-wg] [db-wg] objection to RIPE policy proposal 2016-01
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Hank Nussbacher
hank at efes.iucc.ac.il
Tue Mar 1 03:38:17 CET 2016
On Sun, 28 Feb 2016, Ruediger Volk wrote: As someone with legacy space (and who takes issue with RIPE NCC about certain policies) I have no problem with abuse-c. I defined it ages ago on all inetnums because that is the right thing to do. -Hank > Dear colleagues, > > I object to passing the policy as proposed. > There is no serious need for the policy, > and at this time and under curent circumstance it would > actually be harmful. > I believe that the supposed good intentions would be better > served by other actions, and the policy focussing on enforcement > is ill advised. > > I understand that the current implementation of the RIPE database allows > legacy holders to enter abuse-c attributes for their legacy resources > if that's currently not possible the required extension of the database > should be discussed (in the approprioate wg) and implementation would NOT > require the PDP (as more drastic changes have been done to the database > - and that extension hardly would contradict existing policy). > No PDP is needed to send friendly invitations to legacy holders to populate > their data objects with abuse-c information; > I'm sure asking the RIPE NCC to do this would not create an undue burden > or serious problem. > > Enhancing the invitations with some additional information potentially > helpful to the recipients could be considered too: > - some hints/guidance about expected use and support of that mailbox > (active members of the abuse handling community probably will NOT be the > typical recipient! and no injuries are expected if any community member sees > that information:-) > - specific suggestions what to put into the abuse-c field > (whatever the RIPE NCC might use to extrapolate abuse-c from existing data) > The working group should contribute helpful information to be included. > > I'm quite certain running a second invitation campaign would be even less > of a problem and effort for RIPE NCC; I cannot predict how much the information > provided in a later campaign can be improved based on feedback and experience > from an earlier one. > > You may argue, that such more friendly approach could have been used also > earlier - and I would very much agree and I certainly complained and > suggested that at least the forced population of missing abuse-c should > be postponed until friendly information was made available. > > Now we do NOT HAVE TO repeat past errors... > Specifically with legacy resource holders it would be a good idea > for RIPE community and NCC to address them with an inviting and > helpful approach; as there is a sad history of seemingly coercive > and unfriendly communications towards legacy holders. > > REPEATING the error now - even considering the much lower number of > relevant records - is however actually MORE SERIOUS in DAMAGING > the CREDIBILITY of the working group (and as a consequence the RIPE NCCs > position) because of the accumulated history. > Repeated requests for information on supposed use und handling of abuse-c > has been answered by pointing out that it is required by a policy > that was consciously created without any such information. > The new policy proposal painfully fits into the sad observation that > the anti-abuse working group as a community has constantly > put effort into enforcing creation and population of abuse-c data > but not (even tried) to provide to the rest of the world helpful > explanations on requirements and expected handling at the requested mailboxes. > That observations leads to the question whether the community is not able to > come up with some helpful explanation or whether it does not care... :-( > In both cases asking for enforcement does seem neither appropriate > nor acceptable and means that the request cannot be taken serious > - bad for the perception of RIPE and RIPE NCC activety by parties > that are not heavily involved in the community processes. > Consider the typical person confronted with a request to define abuse-c: > how deeply is he involved with the anti-abuse working group > (where a common understanding might exist - I consider myself only occassional > observer and not a member and don't know)? > > Trying to close more quickly and on a more constructive perspective > let me skip to elaborate here on my judgement: > at close inspection the rationale and arguments look quite broken. > > The policy content does actually not matter that much - look for a sketch of > a potential harmless implementation approach above in this message. > What matters is appropriate use of the PDP (it can be abused!!!) > and what are good goals of the working group and good ways of achieving them. > > The assumed good goals (as I understand it) are > (a) improving quality of abuse-c information in order to > (b) improve abuse reporting and report handling processes and > (c) extending the abuse-c coverage for Internet number resources > in the RIPE NCC registry > > The policy proposal references (a) and (b) quite explicitly; > I took the liberty to interpolate (b) which actually seems to be the > primary goal, and it looks like the working group decided that this will > be helped by means of creating distinctly identified mailbox information > to be put into abuse-c. > The criterium for gauging (a) seems to be whether "improved data" actually > helps "improve processing" (b) - what else? > Creating abuse-c entries of better/good quality obviously depends on the > recipient being appropriate and informed about expected potential messages > and preparing to deal with them. > Forcing creation of abuse-c in any other way is not going to create > better quality but actually looses information (you loose track of > which entries have the "quality of informed and [potentially] > prepared recipient"). > > We have to assume that Internet number resource holders requested > to establish abuse-c > - usually are NOT focussed an abuse handling (different core business:-) > - in many cases are not members of the anti-abuse working > (and unlikely to have insight into undocumented potential consensus views > of the working group or the larger abuse-c activist community) > - in general willing to cooperate > (we really should care for those and help them! > ... yes, there are others - from "don't care" to "evil") > > For making a reasoned decision about the recipient for abuse-c and preparing > for handling messages one obviously needs some understanding/explanation > of what is expected. > If no such helpful information is offered at the time of requesting abuse-c > setup, many well intentioned parties will *something* (not really good > "quality") to fill required fields and little motivation to followup > will remain. > If they care to ask for helpful information and the answer stays "this is > required by policy, and it consciously declines to explain", they are likely > to conclude that they have to submit to RIPE policies and the policy > makers+process that cannot be taken serious... > > I note that for goal (b) of course some common understanding of expected use > and handling for the abuse-c mailbox is a prerequisite on BOTH sides > (senders also!) > > I do not expect to see formal, precise, and exhaustive definition of > requirements and intended/expected use of abuse-c use - that would seem > fairly impossible and certainly would not provide a practical answer > to the issue. > The working group needs to followup it previous abuse-c policy > by starting to create practically useful explanations, before considering > more "enforcement" (actually IMHO all enforcement activety should > [have] be[en] postponed - potentially replaced by friendly invitations). > It may take considerable effort to develope consensus on such > documentation - but is it reasonable to rely on all relevant outside parties > to have the first contact figure out completely on his own and explain > to his management, consultants, service providers, etc... what needs to be > done? (what aggregated cost and what "quality" implications do you expect?) > > It's ok to have working groups that just have internal fun between some > birds of a feather. If a working group feels like making demands > (e.g. policies) to a larger community it should also consider what > support it needs to provide to serve the purposes of that larger community. > > Thanks for your attention and consideration. > Ruediger Volk > > > P.S.: Sorry, for a painfully long message. > Trust me I had more painful time writing - and making it shorter > would have been worse - with termination not secure:-) > > I hope that the painful length does not obscure > - valid concern > - constructive suggestions >
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