SV: [anti-abuse-wg] DRAFT: RIPE proposal - implementation of an

Michele Neylon :: Blacknight wrote:

Still no "hello" from you ...
(and then complaining about "my tone")

Hello Michele,

> On 12 Apr 2010, at 10:47, Frank Gadegast wrote:
> 
>> Michele Neylon :: Blacknight wrote:
>>> On 11 Apr 2010, at 16:29, Frank Gadegast , Dipl-Inform. Frank Gadegast wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>> Hi,
>>
>>>>> I think the following should be the "easiest" way of reducing spam:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Adding that the ISP should have a responsibily to reduce spam to the contract between the ISP and RIPE. (If as only adding "ISP should try to reduce spam" with no other details.)
>>>> Yes, but this has to be formulated a way, that the recipient decides
>>>> what spam is, so that there has no definition of spam to be included.
>>>>
>>>> So: RIPE has to add to the members contract, that the member is responsible
>>>> for receiving abuse reports and reducing the cause of these reports as much as possible.
>>> You cannot expect anyone to sign a contract which expects them to take action against something which has not been defined.
>> Again, the above sentence is not talking about abuse, its talking about abuse reports, or name it complaints, when you like that more.
>> You dont need a definition of abuse, if you make the member
>> responsible for taking care of complaints.
>>
>> Abuse is then everything what the recipient or attack person like to complain about, because he feels abused.
> 
> 
> That is wide open to gaming.

See me next mailing about this.
I explained it now 10 times, and maybe
you read the 11th.
Thats whats the backlink is for.

> Taking care of a complaint can be as simple as closing the ticket.

Right, and to give a comment, select a category or whatever.

But: you will still get those that do not react at all,
that have a dead abuse address aso.

And it will be quite easy to detect, if one member
simply closes all his tickets without giving
any feedback.

>> Looks like you did not read the DRAFT at all.
>> Thats excatly why we need a system at RIPE.
>> And the pros and cons of such a system are discussed here since last week.
> 
> And I and others have pointed out why such a centralised system is a fundamentally flawed idea

Right, but its not at all helpful to repeat the cons.

It would be more helpful, if you present ideas to make a whatever
anti abuse system make it to work, so that you like it.

What do you need to drop your cons ?

>>>>> 3. Give RIPE possibility to fine the misbehaving ISP or to cancel the agreement in worst case scenario.
>>>> A big yes, but we will have to find consensus here, whats worse
>>>> and what punishment could happen, there are a lot of possibilities.
>>> You cannot expect anyone to agree to being fined without workable definitions
>> Again, you dont need a definition.
>> Its only important that the members takes care about complaints.
> 
> "Take care" how exactly?

Up to the member.
Nobody will tell the member how to react, and how could we ?

> You really can't be this vague if you want to modify a contract and introduce censure against RIPE members
> 
> 
>>>>> Cons. I dont know if the spamreports on spamcop are reliable or if they can be forged by spammers. I guess their shoud be some way of fixing that problem if that is the case.
>>>> The system is well known, and most big provider use it
>>> That's a wonderfully broad sweeping statement.
>>> Do you have proof to back that up?
>> No, and I dont have too, because I sayd, that RIPE needs an own system
>> to be bullet-proof, toher source "could" be used to proof
>> own data, nothing more.
> 
> 
> You are putting forward a proposal which you expect to be taken seriously

Not at all, its a draft for discussion, thats what we are
doing here. The next version will be much better and suite
the needs of much more people here on the list.
But surely only those that give feedback about how to make it better.

> If you cannot defend it properly why did you even start?

Sorry, you dont help the discussion.
All you do is critizising me (not for the first time
and too personal I would say).

I have nothing to "defend", an RFC is a
"request for comment", if you dont know that.

Do your comments, give ideas, tell me how to make
a better system, that suits even more people.

Others on this list give really valuable feedback,
like "hm, thats not a good idea, you did not think
about this or that, better do it this way",
thats what I need.

But I can write an RFC with the title
"RFC 3302: why frank is that stupid"
then you can comment me personally ...


Kind regards, Frank

> 
>>
>> Kind regards, Frank
>>
>>>>> Martin Tranefjord
>>>>>
>>> Mr Michele Neylon
>>> Blacknight Solutions
>>> Hosting & Colocation, Brand Protection
>>> ICANN Accredited Registrar
>>> http://www.blacknight.com/
>>> http://blog.blacknight.com/
>>> http://mneylon.tel
>>> Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
>>> US: 213-233-1612 UK: 0844 484 9361
>>> Locall: 1850 929 929
>>> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
>>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon
>>> -------------------------------
>>> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
>>> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland  Company No.: 370845
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> Mit freundlichen Gruessen,
>> --
>> PHADE Software - PowerWeb                       http://www.powerweb.de
>> Inh. Dipl.-Inform. Frank Gadegast             mailto:frank at powerweb.de
>> Schinkelstrasse 17                                fon: +49 33200 52920
>> 14558 Nuthetal OT Rehbruecke, Germany             fax: +49 33200 52921
>> ======================================================================
>> Public PGP Key available for frank at powerweb.de
>>
> 
> Mr Michele Neylon
> Blacknight Solutions
> Hosting & Colocation, Brand Protection
> ICANN Accredited Registrar
> http://www.blacknight.com/
> http://blog.blacknight.com/
> http://mneylon.tel
> Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
> US: 213-233-1612 
> UK: 0844 484 9361
> Locall: 1850 929 929
> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
> Twitter: http://twitter.com/mneylon
> -------------------------------
> Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
> Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland  Company No.: 370845
> 
> 
> 
> 


-- 

Mit freundlichen Gruessen,
--
PHADE Software - PowerWeb                       http://www.powerweb.de
Inh. Dipl.-Inform. Frank Gadegast             mailto:frank at powerweb.de
Schinkelstrasse 17                                fon: +49 33200 52920
14558 Nuthetal OT Rehbruecke, Germany             fax: +49 33200 52921
======================================================================
Public PGP Key available for frank at powerweb.de