[address-policy-wg] what does consensus mean

Thanks Malcolm,

I think this is a perfect definition of consensus and it shows that "more voices" not necessarily means "consensus".

However, I really think, regardless if there are or not objections, consensus can't be achieved on "non-sense" or "unrealistic" proposals which can't be enforced.

Part of the problem is because it looks like instead of giving priority to the "policy text", we also obey the policy proposal, the IA, and so, which are not in the "policy manual". I'm going to talk about this in a new thread to avoid mixing things with this concrete policy proposal.

Regards,
Jordi

-----Mensaje original-----
De: address-policy-wg <address-policy-wg-bounces at ripe.net> en nombre de Malcolm Hutty <malcolm at linx.net>
Fecha: martes, 16 de enero de 2018, 12:11
Para: Jim Reid <jim at rfc1035.com>, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet at consulintel.es>
CC: <address-policy-wg at ripe.net>
Asunto: Re: [address-policy-wg] what does consensus mean

    On 16/01/2018 10:02, Jim Reid wrote:
    > And yes, in theory it's possible for a charlatan to "stack the deck" by having their (ficticious) friends express support for a proposal.
    
    Actually, if "rough consensus" is applied properly (and you could
    criticise what I'm about to say by saying is overly theoretical), I
    don't think stacking the audience with supporters does achieve rough
    consensus. Rough consensus should never be about counting noses.
    
    That's because I don't think that "rough consensus" is primarily about
    how many supporters a proposal has, I think it's about primarily about
    the nature and quality of the objection.
    
    If there are no objections, that's unanimous approval, which is a subset
    of rough consensus.
    
    If there are objections, the number of objections isn't a first order
    concern (although that can be a signal of something else).
    
    If the objections are recognised as being serious, valid concerns that
    haven't been properly addressed, then the Chairs should find that "rough
    consensus" has not yet been achieved. And it shouldn't really matter how
    few people object, except insofar as a signal (if nobody has been
    persuaded, why is that? Perhaps this signals an underlying flaw in the
    objection, that allows it to be legitimately discarded).
    
    If the only objections are invalid (e.g. out of scope) or have been
    properly addressed, then it is possible to find a rough consensus
    notwithstanding that some (or even many) people still have (invalid)
    objections or aren't willing to accept that their point has been dealt with.
    
    In the present case, Sander wrote:
    > Short summary:
    > - a problem was discovered in the IPv6 policy
    > - we see consensus that this policy proposal solves that problem
    > - we recognise that you would like an even better solution
    > - and we'll happily work with you to achieve that!
    > - but because this proposal solves the original problem we don't want to delay it
    
    To me, that reads as an admirably clear and succinct explanation in the
    category "we've dealt with your objection, now we're moving on".
    
    Of course, what constitutes an "invalid" objection is hard to describe
    and extremely difficult to define completely, perhaps not even possible.
    
    But I'm sure we can all think of examples. Here's one:
       "I don't think this policy should be approved because RIPE has no
       legitimate authority to make policy; that is the purview of
       governments" would, IMO, be an invalid objection, on the grounds that
       the central question it poses (does RIPE has legitimate policy-making
       authority?) is out of scope for a discussion about whether X should
       be approved (possibly on other, more complicated grounds too).
    
       If someone packed the floor / mailing list, with hundreds of people
       who agreed with that proposition, I think the proper course of action
       for a APWG Chair would be to ignore all of them.
       There's a time and a place for that kind of discussion. During a PDP
       is not it.
    
    This does invest an awful lot of responsibility in the WG Chairs (or,
    for matters considered by the community as a whole, the RIPE Chair), to
    discern and discriminate between a valid of objection and an invalid
    one. It is requires a lot of rather subjective judgement, not on the
    matter at hand, but on the nature of the discussion and our community
    and its purpose and values and what we consider a legitimate frame of
    discussion. While I happen to think that having a conversation that
    attempts to broaden a common understanding of the kinds of things that
    Chairs ought to consider invalid objections would be beneficial, not
    least for the WG Chairs and especially future Chairs, this can only be a
    discussion of principles and norms, it can never be turned into a rigid
    set of rules. This model will always rest heavily on the judgment of the
    Chairs. I'm OK with that.
    
    Malcolm.
    
    -- 
                Malcolm Hutty | tel: +44 20 7645 3523
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