[address-policy-wg] address-policy-wg Digest, Vol 33, Issue 10

I personally believe we might no longer need to distinguish PI and
PA--it might solve all the question all together.

On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 4:49 AM,  <address-policy-wg-request at ripe.net> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: 2014-04 New Policy Proposal (Relaxing IPv6    Requirement
>       for Receiving Space from the Final /8) (Sander Steffann)
>    2. Re: 2014-04 New Policy Proposal (Relaxing IPv6 Requirement
>       for Receiving Space from the Final /8) (Tore Anderson)
>    3. Re: 2014-04 New Policy Proposal (Relaxing IPv6    Requirement
>       for Receiving Space from the Final /8) (Sander Steffann)
>    4. Re: 2014-04 New Policy Proposal (Relaxing IPv6 Requirement
>       for Receiving Space from the Final /8) (Richard Hartmann)
>    5. Re: 2014-04 New Policy Proposal (Relaxing IPv6    Requirement
>       for Receiving Space from the Final /8) (Sander Steffann)
>    6. Re: 2014-04 New Policy Proposal (Relaxing IPv6 Requirement
>       for Receiving Space from the Final /8) (Tore Anderson)
>    7. Re: 2014-04 New Policy Proposal (Relaxing IPv6 Requirement
>       for Receiving Space from the Final /8) (Carlos Friacas)
>    8. Re: 2014-04 New Policy Proposal (Relaxing IPv6    Requirement
>       for Receiving Space from the Final /8) (Erik Bais)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 21:08:41 +0200
> From: Sander Steffann <sander at steffann.nl>
> Subject: Re: [address-policy-wg] 2014-04 New Policy Proposal (Relaxing
>         IPv6    Requirement for Receiving Space from the Final /8)
> To: Jan Ingvoldstad <frettled at gmail.com>
> Cc: Gert D?ring <gert at space.net>,       "address-policy-wg at ripe.net Working
>         Group" <address-policy-wg at ripe.net>
> Message-ID: <092F992E-EC5E-403D-90DC-CF8186258D89 at steffann.nl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Hi Jan,
>
>>> Historically it was put in there as an encouragement for "last /8" LIRs
>>> to "do something with IPv6"...
>>
>> I know that, but that's not quite what I meant.
>>
>> What I meant is that I don't see why the current requirement for IPv6 PA is there, but that the current document didn't already have IPv6 PI as a valid requirement.
>>
>> Not either-or.
>
> I first thought that the last /8 policy was written before IPv6 PI for LIRs became possible, so I checked:
> - IPv6 PI for LIRS was 2009-08 (concluded in 2009)
> - Last /8 was 2010-02
>
> Seems I was wrong. IPv6 PI for LIRs did exist at the time that the last /8 policy was written. I think at the time we just didn't even consider LIRs that didn't want/need IPv6 PA space.
>
> Cheers,
> Sander
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 05 May 2014 21:53:34 +0200
> From: Tore Anderson <tore at fud.no>
> Subject: Re: [address-policy-wg] 2014-04 New Policy Proposal (Relaxing
>         IPv6 Requirement for Receiving Space from the Final /8)
> To: Sander Steffann <sander at steffann.nl>, Jan Ingvoldstad
>         <frettled at gmail.com>
> Cc: Gert D?ring <gert at space.net>,       "address-policy-wg at ripe.net Working
>         Group" <address-policy-wg at ripe.net>
> Message-ID: <5367EC3E.5040209 at fud.no>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> * Sander Steffann
>
>> I think at the time we just didn't even consider LIRs that didn't
>> want/need IPv6 PA space.
>
> Right. But the summary of the proposal identifies the *actual* problem here:
>
>   ?In order to qualify [for IPv6 PA], they need to request an IPv6
>   allocation and subsequently return their existing PI assignment
>   (per ripe-589 section 7.1)?
>
> If that PI assignment is already in use, a requirement to renumber and
> return it might be a showstopper for getting PA space. Renumbering is
> *hard* - it is *a lot* of work.
>
> So while I don't think 2014-04 is harmful in any way and I don't have
> any objections to it, I do find it quite puzzling that it does not try
> to fix the actual problem in ripe-589 section 7.1 - which, if 2014-04
> were to pass, would remain just as ?downright deleterious to IPv6
> adoption? as before.
>
> Tore
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 22:02:36 +0200
> From: Sander Steffann <sander at steffann.nl>
> Subject: Re: [address-policy-wg] 2014-04 New Policy Proposal (Relaxing
>         IPv6    Requirement for Receiving Space from the Final /8)
> To: Tore Anderson <tore at fud.no>
> Cc: "address-policy-wg at ripe.net Working Group"
>         <address-policy-wg at ripe.net>, Gert D?ring <gert at space.net>
> Message-ID: <4815E7AE-510E-4A78-81B9-AF4555D34ECF at steffann.nl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Hi,
>
>>> I think at the time we just didn't even consider LIRs that didn't
>>> want/need IPv6 PA space.
>>
>> Right. But the summary of the proposal identifies the *actual* problem here:
>>
>>  ?In order to qualify [for IPv6 PA], they need to request an IPv6
>>  allocation and subsequently return their existing PI assignment
>>  (per ripe-589 section 7.1)?
>
> Yep, seen that.
>
>> If that PI assignment is already in use, a requirement to renumber and
>> return it might be a showstopper for getting PA space. Renumbering is
>> *hard* - it is *a lot* of work.
>
> Ack
>
>> So while I don't think 2014-04 is harmful in any way and I don't have
>> any objections to it, I do find it quite puzzling that it does not try
>> to fix the actual problem in ripe-589 section 7.1 - which, if 2014-04
>> were to pass, would remain just as ?downright deleterious to IPv6
>> adoption? as before.
>
> It is again a balance of address policy vs routing table conservation. I personally wouldn't have a problem with letting an LIR keep their PI space when they get their PA space. How does this working group feel about that?
>
> Cheers,
> Sander
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 22:02:49 +0200
> From: Richard Hartmann <richih.mailinglist at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [address-policy-wg] 2014-04 New Policy Proposal (Relaxing
>         IPv6 Requirement for Receiving Space from the Final /8)
> To: Tore Anderson <tore at fud.no>
> Cc: Sander Steffann <sander at steffann.nl>,       "address-policy-wg at ripe.net
>         Working Group" <address-policy-wg at ripe.net>, Gert D?ring
>         <gert at space.net>
> Message-ID:
>         <CAD77+gQcWNcNdyKdwkTR1O3jdePZ-fabno9ncU6oWctgzxkE5A at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 9:53 PM, Tore Anderson <tore at fud.no> wrote:
>> If that PI assignment is already in use, a requirement to renumber and
>> return it might be a showstopper for getting PA space. Renumbering is
>> *hard* - it is *a lot* of work.
>
> As the guy who renumbered a /17 in a few months: Yes. Oh my $deity... yes.
>
>
>> So while I don't think 2014-04 is harmful in any way and I don't have
>> any objections to it, I do find it quite puzzling that it does not try
>> to fix the actual problem in ripe-589 section 7.1 - which, if 2014-04
>> were to pass, would remain just as ?downright deleterious to IPv6
>> adoption? as before.
>
> I would also support such a proposal or maybe even help spearhead it. ...Tore?
>
>
> Richard
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 22:07:08 +0200
> From: Sander Steffann <sander at steffann.nl>
> Subject: Re: [address-policy-wg] 2014-04 New Policy Proposal (Relaxing
>         IPv6    Requirement for Receiving Space from the Final /8)
> To: Richard Hartmann <richih.mailinglist at gmail.com>,    Tore Anderson
>         <tore at fud.no>, Gert D?ring <gert at space.net>
> Cc: "address-policy-wg at ripe.net Working Group"
>         <address-policy-wg at ripe.net>
> Message-ID: <005C7559-A48E-4F8C-B858-BB18A58F7909 at steffann.nl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Hi,
>
>>> So while I don't think 2014-04 is harmful in any way and I don't have
>>> any objections to it, I do find it quite puzzling that it does not try
>>> to fix the actual problem in ripe-589 section 7.1 - which, if 2014-04
>>> were to pass, would remain just as ?downright deleterious to IPv6
>>> adoption? as before.
>>
>> I would also support such a proposal or maybe even help spearhead it. ...Tore?
>
> /me feels an agenda item for section Y coming up...
>
> Cheers,
> Sander
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 06 May 2014 07:13:54 +0200
> From: Tore Anderson <tore at fud.no>
> Subject: Re: [address-policy-wg] 2014-04 New Policy Proposal (Relaxing
>         IPv6 Requirement for Receiving Space from the Final /8)
> To: Sander Steffann <sander at steffann.nl>
> Cc: "address-policy-wg at ripe.net Working Group"
>         <address-policy-wg at ripe.net>, Gert D?ring <gert at space.net>
> Message-ID: <53686F92.5060400 at fud.no>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> * Sander Steffann
>
>> It is again a balance of address policy vs routing table
>> conservation. I personally wouldn't have a problem with letting an
>> LIR keep their PI space when they get their PA space. How does this
>> working group feel about that?
>
> Me neither. I think is fine to *encourage* newly formed LIRs to return
> IPv6 PI when they're requesting PA, but *requiring* it is a tad too
> tough. If the end result is that the newly formed LIRs cannot provision
> their End Users with IPv6 addresses because they cannot realistically
> get PA space, we're doing something wrong...
>
> That said, this isn't my itch to scratch really (I already have all the
> IPv6 I need)...so if you want to do a proposal, Richard, go right ahead!
> I promised myself 2014 would be a proposal-free year...and besides I
> won't be going to Warszawa either. :-/
>
> Tore
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 07:22:49 +0100 (WEST)
> From: Carlos Friacas <cfriacas at fccn.pt>
> Subject: Re: [address-policy-wg] 2014-04 New Policy Proposal (Relaxing
>         IPv6 Requirement for Receiving Space from the Final /8)
> To: Sander Steffann <sander at steffann.nl>
> Cc: "address-policy-wg at ripe.net Working Group"
>         <address-policy-wg at ripe.net>
> Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.11.1405060721480.11281 at gauntlet.id.fccn.pt>
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
>
> On Mon, 5 May 2014, Sander Steffann wrote:
>
> (...)
>>
>> It is again a balance of address policy vs routing table conservation. I personally wouldn't have a problem with letting an LIR keep their PI space when they get their PA space. How does this working group feel about that?
>
> Should be allowed to keep the PI, i.e. avoiding renumbering at all cost.
>
> Cheers,
> Carlos
>
>> Cheers,
>> Sander
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 11:48:49 +0200
> From: "Erik Bais" <ebais at a2b-internet.com>
> Subject: Re: [address-policy-wg] 2014-04 New Policy Proposal (Relaxing
>         IPv6    Requirement for Receiving Space from the Final /8)
> To: "'Sander Steffann'" <sander at steffann.nl>, "'Tore Anderson'"
>         <tore at fud.no>
> Cc: address-policy-wg at ripe.net, 'Gert D?ring' <gert at space.net>
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="Windows-1252"
>
> Hi,
>
>> > Right. But the summary of the proposal identifies the *actual* problem
> here:
>> >
>> >  ?In order to qualify [for IPv6 PA], they need to request an IPv6
>> >  allocation and subsequently return their existing PI assignment
>> >  (per ripe-589 section 7.1)?
>
>> Yep, seen that.
>
> Why should an LIR have to return his PI space if they have valid reasons for
> its use and are already using it ?
>
> I agree with Tore that to encourage a LIR to return a v6 PI assignments if
> they can, but if it is in use and active, I would feel strongly against a
> requirement to return the space and get a PA block.
>
> Having a v6 allocation doesn't guarantee the usage of v6 ... and if someone
> went through the trouble in the past to actually get a v6 PI assignment and
> later decides to become a LIR, they get a penalty and are required to return
> the space !!
>
> Besides that and the issue that a v6 PI assignment doesn't 'qualify' for the
> final /8 v4 allocation list, are in my opinion the 2 items that should be
> fixed.
>
> As a suggestion to the authors for the policy text:
>
> Skip the distinction between v6 PA or PI in the policy text and rephrase it
> to :
>
> b. New policy text
> 5.1 Allocations made by the RIPE NCC to LIRs
> [...]
> Allocations will only be made to LIRs if they have already received v6
> resources from an upstream LIR or the RIPE NCC.
>
> And include a change to ripe-589 section 7.1 (
> http://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-589#IPv6_PI_Assignments )
>
> Original text:
> 7.1 IPv6 Provider Independent (PI) Assignments for LIRs
> LIRs can qualify for an IPv6 PI assignment for parts of their own
> infrastructure that are not used for customer end sites. Where an LIR has an
> IPv6 allocation, the LIR must demonstrate the unique routing requirements
> for the PI assignment.
>
> The LIR must return the IPv6 PI assignment within a period of six months if
> the original criteria on which the assignment was based are no longer valid.
>
> If an organisation already received a PI assignment before becoming an LIR,
> the PI assignment should be returned upon receiving an IPv6 allocation if
> there are no specific routing requirements to justify both.
>
> Updated text:
> 7.1 IPv6 Provider Independent (PI) Assignments for LIRs
> LIRs can qualify for an IPv6 PI assignment for parts of their own
> infrastructure that are not used for customer end sites. Where an LIR has an
> IPv6 allocation, the LIR must demonstrate the unique routing requirements
> for the PI assignment.
>
> The LIR must return the IPv6 PI assignment within a period of six months if
> the original criteria on which the assignment was based are no longer valid.
>
> If an organisation already received a PI assignment before becoming an LIR,
> the PI assignment should be returned upon receiving an IPv6 allocation, if
> the original criteria on which the assignment was based are no longer valid.
>
> Regards,
> Erik Bais
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> End of address-policy-wg Digest, Vol 33, Issue 10
> *************************************************



-- 
--
Kind regards.
Lu

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