Dear RIPE List-ers,<div>Hope this email finds you in good health!</div><div><br></div><div>Please see my comments below, inline...</div><div>Thanks.<br><br>Le vendredi 7 juillet 2023, denis walker <<a href="mailto:ripedenis@gmail.com">ripedenis@gmail.com</a>> a écrit :<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Mirjam<br>
<br>
Sorry for yet another long email, but this is an important issue.<br>
<br></blockquote><div> </div><div>Hi Denis,</div><div>Thanks for raising such interesting issues, brother.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>[...]<br>
<br>
The bottom line is that encouraging staff to speak openly and publicly<br>
with the community has both benefits and risks. [...]</blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br></blockquote><div> </div><div>...agreed!</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">[...]</blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">don't need to be involved. If a staff member is a WG chair can they<br>
operate completely independently from any collective company view,<br>
even if that means opposing a company view if that is in the best<br>
interests of the WG, without any penalty?<br>
<br></blockquote><div> </div><div>How to address this risk?</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Encouraging staff to be more involved in RIPE community activities is<br>
a sensitive issue for the staff. It needs more than a couple of<br>
paragraphs and some vague principles. This document looks to have been<br>
written from a community perspective, "welcomed by the RIPE<br>
community". Is it welcomed by the staff? Has anyone asked them? Works<br>
Council or Senior Management? Or has it just been assumed the staff<br>
welcome being in both camps? </blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>A good opportunity to test the assumed *principle*.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Do staff want to be able to put forward<br>
an idea, argue strongly in favour of it, implement it, then take the<br>
blame if it is not right? I've been there and done that and it's not a<br>
nice place to be.<br><br></blockquote><div> </div><div>...i'm not a RIPE NCC Staff! i'm curious to know </div><div>their answers; even an anonymised version would </div><div>suffice.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Finally I would like to comment on the principles in this document. I<br>
have said many times...wording in RIPE documents is important. I am a<br>
native English speaker and an analyst with OCD, so I do see things in<br>
words more easily. But the NCC has a whole team of professional,<br>
English speaking, communications experts. Perhaps they are not used<br>
now to review these docs. Your principle No 2 "RIPE NCC staff<br>
expertise is valuable to and welcomed by the RIPE community." cannot<br>
be a recommended principle. It can be a supporting fact. But if you<br>
recommend, as a principle, that staff expertise is welcomed by the<br>
community, this becomes an instruction to the community that they must<br>
welcome this expertise. That is what these words actually say.<br><br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>...i welcome it! but i expect a RIPE NCC Staff to be </div><div>both protected and prevented to put the RIR org in</div><div> danger; while acting selfishnessly. Training and </div><div>capacity building would certainly be of great help </div><div>here, i agree.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
Lastly, your principle No 1 may have unexpected consequences. "RIPE<br>
NCC staff are part of the community and may participate in RIPE<br>
activities on the same terms as anyone else.". You make no exceptions<br>
here, "same terms as anyone else". So a RIPE NCC staff member can be<br>
part of a task force, be a WG chair, be the RIPE chair (if it is no<br>
longer a full time, paid position), be a member of the next NomCom,<br>
make policy proposals, argue for or against policy proposals. So<br>
consider this possible scenario. A staff member could make a policy<br>
proposal. Other staff members could argue strongly in support of this<br>
proposal. Consensus could be declared by a WG chair who is a staff<br>
member. Any appeal would end up with the RIPE chair who could also be<br>
a staff member. The policy will then be implemented and enforced by<br>
the RIPE NCC staff. All of these people could be influenced by RIPE<br>
NCC internal company policy and allowed time within working hours to<br>
do all this. They are all FTEs paid for by the RIPE NCC membership and<br>
expected to be following RIPE activities anyway, perhaps more closely<br>
than FTEs of member companies. This is a theoretical scenario. </blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Indeed, it's sadly an unexpected & undesirable side</div><div> effect! at least for me :'-(</div><div><br></div><div>How to, safely, prevent it to happen?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">But it does raise the question of how independent and neutral will the RIPE<br>
NCC be seen as, if it's staff can be so involved in the bottom up<br>
policy process at every level, to the point of dominating and<br>
controlling, considering the often lack of other community member<br>
involvement.<br><br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>...for me, quantity alone would not satisfactorily </div><div>address the issue. Where, quality & appropriate </div><div>*safeguards* would likely achieve the objective, </div><div> imho!</div><div><br></div><div>But! which *safeguards*? that's a question i would</div><div> like to get answers from others with more clue...</div><div>:-)</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
I think some more thought is needed for this document.<br><br></blockquote><div> </div><div>...i actually agree too! </div><div>Thanks for your useful and detailed explanation </div><div>of the issues raised, dear Denis.</div><div><br></div><div>Shalom,</div><div>--sb.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
cheers<br>
denis<br>
co-chair DB-WG<br>
member of RIPE community<br>
former RIPE NCC staff member<br>
former chair RIPE NCC Works Council<br>
(for full disclosure)<br>
<br>
<br>
On Fri, 30 Jun 2023 at 12:00, <<a href="mailto:ripe-list-request@ripe.net">ripe-list-request@ripe.net</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> From: Mirjam Kuehne <<a href="mailto:mir@zu-hause.nl">mir@zu-hause.nl</a>><br>
><br>
> [...]<br>
><br>
> [1] RIPE NCC Staff Participation in the RIPE Community<br>
> <a href="https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-documents/other-documents/ripe-ncc-staff-participation-in-the-ripe-community" target="_blank">https://www.ripe.net/<wbr>publications/docs/ripe-<wbr>documents/other-documents/<wbr>ripe-ncc-staff-participation-<wbr>in-the-ripe-community</a><br>
> <br>
> [...]<br><br>
</blockquote></div><br><br>-- <br><p>Best Regards !<br>__<br>baya.sylvain[AT cmNOG DOT cm]|<<a href="https://cmnog.cm/dokuwiki/Structure">https://cmnog.cm/dokuwiki/Structure</a>><br>Subscribe to Mailing List: <<a href="https://lists.cmnog.cm/mailman/listinfo/cmnog/">https://lists.cmnog.cm/mailman/listinfo/cmnog/</a>><br>__<br>#LASAINTEBIBLE|#Romains15:33«Que LE #DIEU de #Paix soit avec vous tous! #Amen!»<br>#MaPrière est que tu naisses de nouveau. #Chrétiennement<br>«Comme une biche soupire après des courants d’eau, ainsi mon âme soupire après TOI, ô DIEU!»(#Psaumes42:2)<br><br></p>