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<p dir="auto">[Please view this message as either plain text or HTML, according to your<br>
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<p dir="auto">On 29 May 2023, at 10:43, Anna Wilson wrote:</p>
</div><div class="plaintext" style="white-space: normal;"><blockquote style="margin: 0 0 5px; padding-left: 5px; border-left: 2px solid #777777; color: #777777;"><p dir="auto">When I attended my first RIPE in 1998, the idea that you could do policy coordination on _the internet_, especially on an open list that uncredentialled people could just join, was pretty radical.</p>
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<p dir="auto">Re "uncredentialled", see below ...</p>
</div><div class="plaintext" style="white-space: normal;"><blockquote style="margin: 0 0 5px; padding-left: 5px; border-left: 2px solid #777777; color: #777777;"><p dir="auto">It's not radical anymore. Well done, us.</p>
<p dir="auto">Leo's right, and the problems he identifies are real.</p>
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<p dir="auto">Yes, and Leo's not the only one.</p>
</div><div class="plaintext" style="white-space: normal;"><blockquote style="margin: 0 0 5px; padding-left: 5px; border-left: 2px solid #777777; color: #777777;"><p dir="auto">Reading this thread, most of what I see are "minimum requirements". Implicit in this seems to be the idea that Important People Won't Join if those requirements aren't met.</p>
<p dir="auto">What I don't see so much yet is a picture of what a new, radical, open approach could look like. Which is the thing that made RIPE successful in the first place.</p>
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<p dir="auto">I don't have that picture yet. I can offer some brainstorming bullet-points<br>
which I've assembled from</p>
<ul>
<li>things I (thought I) understood from Leo well before RIPE86,</li>
<li>what I've seen while lurking in the hallway-chat channel of the RPKI Community Discord server,</li>
<li>what I've noticed in this thread,</li>
<li>various hallway conversations,</li>
<li>some concerns of my own.</li>
</ul>
<p dir="auto">I hope these will help towards painting a clearer picture.</p>
<p dir="auto">I'm sure I've inadvertently left some things, perhaps even important ones, out, and equally sure that one or other of you will help fill in the gaps.</p>
<h2>Disclaimer</h2>
<p dir="auto">No personal name used below, except that of the author, is intended<br>
to refer to any actual person, living or dead.</p>
<h2>Preconceptions</h2>
<p dir="auto">Alternatively "prejudices", or "how things used to be".</p>
<ul>
<li>open standards (SMTP, MIME) ensured interoperability</li>
<li>in-house service, not commodity at scale, and consequently:
<ul>
<li>local expert(s) with responsibility for operating server;</li>
<li>direct relationship between user and operator;</li>
<li>email address was quasi-credential; eg. <a href="mailto:Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie" style="color: #3983C4;">Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie</a><br>
identified the sender because the local operator (probably Niall<br>
O'Reilly himself or a very close colleague) had to set up the mailbox;</li>
<li>direct resolution of almost all problems;</li>
<li>typically only two, or maybe three, parties involved: local<br>
server operator at ucd.ie, heanet.ie, and maybe list admin<br>
at ripe.net.</li>
</ul>
</li>
</ul>
<h2>Meanwhile</h2>
<p dir="auto">"It's email, Jim, but not as we (used to) know it."</p>
<ul>
<li>outsourced service, badge-engineered with domain-part of address;</li>
<li>proprietary "enhancements" undermine interoperability;</li>
<li>different aspects of service outsourced separately, perhaps indirectly:
<ul>
<li>mailbox hosting,</li>
<li>blocklists;</li>
</ul>
</li>
<li>indirect problem resolution via (chain of) outsourced providers;</li>
<li>restricted range of problems which any given provider will address;</li>
<li>message transmission may be restricted by a provider's policies;</li>
<li>complexity due to richer set of standards (SPF, DKIM, SAML, OAuth, TLS).</li>
</ul>
<h2>Use cases</h2>
<ul>
<li>targeted/personal notification:
<ul>
<li>unique personal link to meeting platform,</li>
<li>access credential for e-voting system,</li>
<li>invoices, receipts;</li>
</ul>
</li>
<li>group communication:
<ul>
<li>informal or ephemeral chat;</li>
<li>on-the-record discussion;</li>
<li>formal announcement of milestone or other state transition, eg:
<ul>
<li>phase of discussion,</li>
<li>consensus,</li>
<li>beginning or end of term of office;</li>
</ul>
</li>
</ul>
</li>
</ul>
<h2>Strengths of e-mail</h2>
<ul>
<li>single client (MUA) gives user access to, and management of,<br>
many message feeds;</li>
<li>variety of MUAs matching personal preference and workflow:
<ul>
<li>web-based,</li>
<li>editor-based,</li>
<li>dedicated application;</li>
</ul>
</li>
<li>list archives
<ul>
<li>support transparency,</li>
<li>provide backup for inadvertently deleted messages,</li>
<li>mitigate effect of non-delivery;</li>
</ul>
</li>
<li>mature technology (but see below).</li>
</ul>
<h2>Weaknesses of e-mail</h2>
<ul>
<li>mature technology (but see above);</li>
<li>some (even many) people find alternative platforms better for<br>
informal, ephemeral, or more dynamic interaction;</li>
<li>selective delivery, according to provider's policy.</li>
</ul>
<h2>Challenges</h2>
<ul>
<li>RIPE (and/or RIPE NCC) "branding";</li>
<li>applicability of RIPE Code of Conduct to alternative means of<br>
communication;</li>
<li>proprietary vs open-source platform;</li>
<li>in-house or outsourced operation;</li>
<li>selection of user application (UA):
<ul>
<li>risk of proliferation of UA applications,</li>
<li>aggregating UA apps (eg Mattermost);</li>
</ul>
</li>
<li>tapered (rather than abrupt) transition;</li>
<li>parallel support for alternative delivery channels;</li>
</ul>
<hr style="border: 0; height: 1px; background: #333; background-image: linear-gradient(to right, #ccc, #333, #ccc);">
<p dir="auto">I hope this helps.</p>
<p dir="auto">Niall</p>
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