[ripe-list] The Future of Discussion Lists

Hi Alex,

I think I can place myself in the category of "young people" and I have to
say that I have kinda mixed feelings.

I am against migrating away from mailing lists or moving actual policy work
elsewhere. I'm especially against moving it to something that's not open
source and self-hosted. (self-hosted includes stuff that would be hosted by
the NCC here)

There's an unofficial RIPE community telegram group which works pretty well
for informal chatting. We could create an unofficial RIPE community Discord
as well. I don't think it makes a huge difference if it's official or not
if it's just informal discussion.

I just created a Discord that we can try to use to see how much interest
there is. Anyone who's interested please let me know and I will send you an
invite. (I don't really know if I should post the invite link on the actual
mailing list)

-Cynthia

On Sat, 27 May 2023, 11:43 Alex Band, <alex at nlnetlabs.nl> wrote:

> Looking at the people who replied to this thread so far, this discussion
> appears to have all the makings of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Gert, Jim,
> Joe… All people I’ve known for over a decade or more in the RIPE Community,
> saying on a mailing list that they prefer email. :)
>
> I guess it’s no surprise that none of the younger generation, or people
> who do not like email (style) communications, are here to say that they
> prefer something else instead. They’re all on on Discord servers like
> DisNOG, BGPeople, or the RPKI Community server talking to like-minded
> people, solving problems and having a good time.
>
> I would really hope we can at least get beyond the point of acknowledging
> that mailing lists are not for everyone. But even then, we can do a ton of
> research looking of the holy grail of platforms that is open source,
> decentralised, publicly archived, freely available, has favourable Terms
> and Conditions, and what have you. There’s a good chance there’s always
> going to be some solution that someone doesn’t like, ultimately leading to
> no action being taken.
>
> I get that this may not be what you want to hear - I am an open source,
> open standards advocate at heart - but if you want to attract a different
> crowd and get a different kind of interaction, simply start a Discord
> server. There are so many vibrant communities out there who can attest to
> this. Choose anything else and the RIPE Community will miss out on a ton of
> people who may have something valuable to contribute.
>
> My suggestion: keep the mailing lists as is for the people who prefer
> that, and add Discord to the mix.
>
> Be bold. Give it a shot.
>
> -Alex
>
>
>
> > On 26 May 2023, at 09:41, Leo Vegoda <leo at vegoda.org> wrote:
> >
> > Dear RIPE community,
> >
> > At yesterday’s community plenary I asked whether mailing lists are
> > sustainable as our main communication channel. For those who were not
> > able to attend, the slide and a recording are available here:
> >
> > -
> https://ripe86.ripe.net/wp-content/uploads/presentations/12-Mailing-Lists-RIPE-86.pdf
> > - https://ripe86.ripe.net/archives/video/1115
> >
> > I am obviously concerned that discussion lists might not serve us with
> > fidelity in the future. If that is the case, I want us to manage any
> > change we need to make. We should not be bounced into rapid change.
> >
> > There was more discussion than I expected. I’m sending this message to
> > ask the questions:
> >
> > - Am I wrong? Are e-mail discussion lists a sustainable communication
> > channel for the foreseeable future?
> > - Are e-mail discussion lists an acceptable technology to people
> > joining the industry?
> >
> > The text below is similar to something I shared with the WG Chairs
> > several months ago.
> >
> > Kind regards,.
> >
> > Leo
> >
> > ripe-781 describes four fundamental principles supporting our policy
> > development process. The first two principles are openness and
> > transparency.
> >
> > Changes in the treatment of e-mail by large industry players presents
> > a challenge to these two principles.
> >
> > In 1992, when ripe-001 was published, anyone could run e-mail services
> > on any Internet infrastructure they could use. It is now far more
> > difficult to run e-mail services. Technology developments, like DMARC,
> > have made discussion mailing lists less effective.
> >
> > Validation failures increase the probability of messages being treated
> > as junk. Subscribers to RIPE's discussion lists will miss messages
> > when their e-mail services provider treats them as junk.
> >
> > When a legitimate message to a RIPE discussion list is treated as junk
> > the sender's voice has been moderated by a third-party mail provider.
> > RIPE's transparency is diminished when its discussion lists are
> > subjected to gatekeeping by third-party mail providers.
> >
> > In 1992, e-mail was an improvement to postal services and telephony
> > protocols. In 2023, we have a wide choice of communication protocols
> > and platforms.
> >
> > I believe that new protocols and platforms are preferred over e-mail
> > by potential participants in RIPE at the start of their careers. We
> > want these people to take part in RIPE. They are the future of
> > coordination for the operators of IP networks in Europe and the rest
> > of the world.
> >
> > We must offer all current and potential participants in RIPE an
> > effective set of tools. Any tools we use must support the principles
> > of openness and transparency.
> >
> > An ideal set of tools might have features like this:
> >
> > 1. An open protocol available for implementation by anyone.
> > 2. Free(ly available) software implementations for popular operating
> > systems (Android, iOS, Linux, macOS, and Windows).
> > 3. Allows a user to choose to have activity pushed to them. They must
> > not be forced to maintain a login to be informed of activity they are
> > interested in.
> > 4. A public archive that cannot be retrospectively edited (barring
> > exceptional situations).
> >
> > While the technology choices need to support the principles of
> > openness and transparency, they do not need to do all the work.
> > Announcements, blog posts, and other kinds of communications can be
> > built into our processes.
> >
> > The combination of technology and process can make the whole more
> effective.
> >
> > --
> >
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>
>
> --
>
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