[ripe-list] The Future of Discussion Lists

I'm in the under 35 crowd (for a bit longer, anyway), and I think that's a
good way forward! :-) +1 to Discord, +1 to email!

Best,
-Michael


On Sat, May 27, 2023 at 11:43 AM Alex Band <alex at nlnetlabs.nl> wrote:

> Looking at the people who replied to this thread so far, this discussion
> appears to have all the makings of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Gert, Jim,
> Joe… All people I’ve known for over a decade or more in the RIPE Community,
> saying on a mailing list that they prefer email. :)
>
> I guess it’s no surprise that none of the younger generation, or people
> who do not like email (style) communications, are here to say that they
> prefer something else instead. They’re all on on Discord servers like
> DisNOG, BGPeople, or the RPKI Community server talking to like-minded
> people, solving problems and having a good time.
>
> I would really hope we can at least get beyond the point of acknowledging
> that mailing lists are not for everyone. But even then, we can do a ton of
> research looking of the holy grail of platforms that is open source,
> decentralised, publicly archived, freely available, has favourable Terms
> and Conditions, and what have you. There’s a good chance there’s always
> going to be some solution that someone doesn’t like, ultimately leading to
> no action being taken.
>
> I get that this may not be what you want to hear - I am an open source,
> open standards advocate at heart - but if you want to attract a different
> crowd and get a different kind of interaction, simply start a Discord
> server. There are so many vibrant communities out there who can attest to
> this. Choose anything else and the RIPE Community will miss out on a ton of
> people who may have something valuable to contribute.
>
> My suggestion: keep the mailing lists as is for the people who prefer
> that, and add Discord to the mix.
>
> Be bold. Give it a shot.
>
> -Alex
>
>
>
> > On 26 May 2023, at 09:41, Leo Vegoda <leo at vegoda.org> wrote:
> >
> > Dear RIPE community,
> >
> > At yesterday’s community plenary I asked whether mailing lists are
> > sustainable as our main communication channel. For those who were not
> > able to attend, the slide and a recording are available here:
> >
> > -
> https://ripe86.ripe.net/wp-content/uploads/presentations/12-Mailing-Lists-RIPE-86.pdf
> > - https://ripe86.ripe.net/archives/video/1115
> >
> > I am obviously concerned that discussion lists might not serve us with
> > fidelity in the future. If that is the case, I want us to manage any
> > change we need to make. We should not be bounced into rapid change.
> >
> > There was more discussion than I expected. I’m sending this message to
> > ask the questions:
> >
> > - Am I wrong? Are e-mail discussion lists a sustainable communication
> > channel for the foreseeable future?
> > - Are e-mail discussion lists an acceptable technology to people
> > joining the industry?
> >
> > The text below is similar to something I shared with the WG Chairs
> > several months ago.
> >
> > Kind regards,.
> >
> > Leo
> >
> > ripe-781 describes four fundamental principles supporting our policy
> > development process. The first two principles are openness and
> > transparency.
> >
> > Changes in the treatment of e-mail by large industry players presents
> > a challenge to these two principles.
> >
> > In 1992, when ripe-001 was published, anyone could run e-mail services
> > on any Internet infrastructure they could use. It is now far more
> > difficult to run e-mail services. Technology developments, like DMARC,
> > have made discussion mailing lists less effective.
> >
> > Validation failures increase the probability of messages being treated
> > as junk. Subscribers to RIPE's discussion lists will miss messages
> > when their e-mail services provider treats them as junk.
> >
> > When a legitimate message to a RIPE discussion list is treated as junk
> > the sender's voice has been moderated by a third-party mail provider.
> > RIPE's transparency is diminished when its discussion lists are
> > subjected to gatekeeping by third-party mail providers.
> >
> > In 1992, e-mail was an improvement to postal services and telephony
> > protocols. In 2023, we have a wide choice of communication protocols
> > and platforms.
> >
> > I believe that new protocols and platforms are preferred over e-mail
> > by potential participants in RIPE at the start of their careers. We
> > want these people to take part in RIPE. They are the future of
> > coordination for the operators of IP networks in Europe and the rest
> > of the world.
> >
> > We must offer all current and potential participants in RIPE an
> > effective set of tools. Any tools we use must support the principles
> > of openness and transparency.
> >
> > An ideal set of tools might have features like this:
> >
> > 1. An open protocol available for implementation by anyone.
> > 2. Free(ly available) software implementations for popular operating
> > systems (Android, iOS, Linux, macOS, and Windows).
> > 3. Allows a user to choose to have activity pushed to them. They must
> > not be forced to maintain a login to be informed of activity they are
> > interested in.
> > 4. A public archive that cannot be retrospectively edited (barring
> > exceptional situations).
> >
> > While the technology choices need to support the principles of
> > openness and transparency, they do not need to do all the work.
> > Announcements, blog posts, and other kinds of communications can be
> > built into our processes.
> >
> > The combination of technology and process can make the whole more
> effective.
> >
> > --
> >
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>
>
> --
>
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