[ncc-services-wg] UA IP transfers situation

Hi All,

31.10.22 10:25, Viktoriia Opanasiuk пише:
>> The idea is to close the market, limiting the transfers only to
>> Ukrainian companies.
> 
> The proposal is to temporarily deny ALL transfers, inside and outside of 
> Ukraine, so that all resource holders will remain with what they have, 
> and nobody could possibly get hold of their resources.

No. The proposal was deny all transfers outside Ukraine. That's what you 
told at the meeting, and that what Fedienko forced Ukrainian operators 
to write to the meeting chat.

> And even if that assumption would not be wrong, it is quite unrealistic 
> that Ukrainian companies that maintain infrastructure and struggle to 
> rebuild networks on destroyed or de-occupied territories are going to 
> sell their IP addresses to get some profit - they do not have enough of 
> them already, how are they going to get more?

Again, that's NOT YOUR RESOURCE! And this is not a government business 
what to do with it.

But I'm happy you admitted the one of the real reasons of the ban - to 
implement the government control of transfers.

> On the other hand, there is quite real scenario for companies whose 
> business is based on re-selling IP addresses or providing "services" of 
> moving resources out of Ukraine, including the one that Max Tulyev 
> announced just several days ago 
> (https://www.facebook.com/mt6561/posts/pfbid0273c1ndwbZXBLc9ST7sFwisCC9o8Bw9Yhs8vAUfX1e9HP5UmQexvUCbnGp8RtQVvFl 
> <https://www.facebook.com/mt6561/posts/pfbid0273c1ndwbZXBLc9ST7sFwisCC9o8Bw9Yhs8vAUfX1e9HP5UmQexvUCbnGp8RtQVvFl>).
> 
> Such businesses will not thrive if the transfers will be frozen.

Yes, I will help people to avoid your robbery as much as possible.
Again, THAT IS NOT YOUR RESOURCES! KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF!

>> First, while RIPE NCC accepts "documents" issued on the
> 
>> occupied territories based on LPR/DPR/Russian jurisdiction,
> 
>> this ban of Ukrainian resources transfer can be easily avoided
> 
>> just using these "documents". Including for the real forced
> 
>> transfers.
> 
> It isn't clear what is the problem you describe here.
> 
> However, it is a problem that many companies from those territories are 
> registered by RIPE NCC based on registration papers issued either by 
> russia or dnr/lnr, and therefore might not be seen as Ukrainian.
> 
> Ideally RIPE NCC should block transfers of companies registered on the 
> whole internationally recognized territory of Ukraine, including all 
> occupied territories.

I totally agree NCC should not accept any "documents" issued by 
occupation administrations. But they do. And again, it is nothing to do 
with the ban.

> For someone who fled the country it might seem that there are distressed 
> areas and areas "behind high mountains". But the reality in Ukraine is 
> that the whole country is distressed. There are companies registered in 
> what you describe as "safe areas", but they have representatives on all 
> territory of the country, including occupied areas. Or the head of a 
> company in the "safe" territory could have relatives who are under 
> occupation. In all such cases they could be threatened and forced to 
> sign transfer documents.

Due to this logic, some of the representatives of for example 
Netherlands company can be there in the distress area. Yes, they 
possibly can. Why you don't ask to ban all IP transfers within the 
Netherlands?

> Again, the proposal is to temporarily hold all transfers of Ukrainian 
> holders.

I here it first time now. Before that, you said about transfers outside 
Ukraine.

> And in the end it will be better if we focus our efforts on solving the 
> problem, and not on writing a hypothetical stories. The discussion 
> should be constructive and effective.

We do not want to solve your fictional problems, sorry.

And we do not want any forms of government control for IPv4 address 
space, including any country-wide bans.

Yes, there should be more strict checks for the distressed areas. There 
should be a "red button" inside a LIR portal. And that's all.