[ncc-services-wg] Fwd: RIPE 46 - Minutes of Ripe NCC Services WG

	

Please send corrections / comments.

Best regards,

- kurtis -

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Sabrina Wilmot <sabrina at ripe.net>
> Date: mån sep 29, 2003  13:06:11 Europe/Stockholm
> To: Kurt Erik Lindqvist <kurtis at kurtis.pp.se>
> Subject: RIPE 46 - Minutes of Ripe NCC Services WG
>
> Hi Kurtis,
>
> Please find below the minutes of the Ripe NCC Services WG at RIPE 46.
>
> Regards,
> Sabrina
> RIPE NCC
>
>
>>                 RIPE 46, Amsterdam
>>
>> Working Group: Ripe NCC Services
>> Chair: Kurt Erik Lindqvist
>> Scribe: Isabel Pinto Coelho Sena
>>
>> Agenda:
>>
>> Slot 1, Tuesday 2/9 14.00-15.30
>>
>> 1.      NCC Services WG Charter (Kurtis)
>> 2.      RIPE NCC Services Direction (Axel Pawlik)
>>           Service level and activities 2004
>> 3.      RIPE NCC Information Services
>> 4.      Discussion & input time / Open Mic session
>>
>> Slot 2, Thursday 4/9 11.00-12.30
>>
>> 5.      Presentation on X.509 and certificates (Dirk-Willem van  
>> Gulik).
>>         Discussions around the x.509 implementation of the RIPE NCC
>>         and what other RIRs have done.
>> 6.      DNS Services - Modification Plans
>> 7.      Proposals from the community
>> 8.      Discussion & input time / Open Mic session
>> X.      AOB
>> Z.      Close
>> ________________________________________________________________
>>
>> 1.      NCC Services WG Charter
>>
>> WG Charter presented. No objections were made to it's content.
>>
>> 2.      RIPE NCC Services Direction (Axel Pawlik, Managing Director  
>> RIPE
>> NCC)
>>         Service level and activities 2004
>>
>> See Axel's presentation at
>>
>> http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-46/presentations/ripe46- 
>> nccserv-ncc-services.pdf
>>
>> Kurtis Lindqvist : Who has read/seen the Member Update?
>>         [~20 people raised their hands]
>> Kurtis Lindqvist : Who here are Members?
>>         [~60 people raised their hands]
>>
>> 3.      RIPE NCC Information Services
>>
>> See Axel's previous presentation from slide 27 onwards
>>
>> http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-46/presentations/ripe46- 
>> nccserv-ncc-services.pdf
>>
>> 4.      Discussion & input time / Open Mic session
>>
>>
>> Kurtis Lindqvist : Are there any questions for Axel?
>>         [No one had questions]
>>
>> Kurtis Lindqvist : I have one myself: You spoke of the data you have
>> that can be used to educate journalists, where do you want to push
>> them, just as a general awareness?
>>
>> Axel Pawlik (MD RIPE NCC): We want them to know that we are working
>> well, we want the industry to tell them "do not interfere, they work
>> well".  As an example: name servers
>>
>> Kurtis Lindqvist: Any other questions?
>>         [None were raised]
>>
>> Kurtis Lindqvist : please register for the GM
>>
>> Axel Pawlik : there was a heated discussion on the mailing lists?  
>> None now?
>>       [None responded]
>>
>> Rob Blokzijl (RIPE Chairman): I'm surprised that there is no one that
>> is willing to discuss the issues off the mailing-list, so I will bring
>> up 2 issues that were often discussed. First one is: Whether all these
>> services that the RIPE NCC offers are needed? I would like also to
>> point that there was no discussion on whether they are _useful_
>> however. Then there was the issue of a flat free financial
>> contribution versus a supermarket scenario? Meaning that one could
>> pick and choose the services one is willing to pay and have use for.
>>
>> Wilfried Woeber (Vienna University - ACOnet): I've observed through
>> the years another organization where the same discussion was going on
>> for years, started out as a flat free and then some started to object
>> to this model. In the end, they found the most reasonable solution:
>> you buy all or nothing. It is difficult to find out which activities
>> are optional and which mandatory. Individual amount, increasing the
>> administration overhead that goes along with keeping up with this
>> supermarket model, this will not come for free... The complexity that
>> we might inject into the subject is not going to be easy. It also
>> splits the RIPE Community into 2 / 3 / 4 camps. Copyrighting on
>> certain Services, making people pay for copies. It will de-stabilise
>> the RIPE NCC and the Community.
>>
>> Kurtis Lindqvist: Well, a number of people are questioning the order
>> and priority of the activities.
>>
>> Rob Blockzijl (RIPE Chair): I hope that one of the results of having
>> this WG is to make people remember why certain services were created
>> in the past, as the NCC did not just came up on a idle afternoon with:
>> "let's create an activity". The NCC has always listened to the
>> Community's input. It might not have been clear as to where and when
>> the decisions were taken, that's why I'm glad we have this WG. Having
>> it, it is possible to revisit the past and re-evaluate current
>> services, although it might be more constructive to look at the future
>> and we can improve.
>>
>> Kurtis Lindqvist : How many of you have read the Activity Plan?
>>         [~10 max raised their hands]
>> I'm concerned because some people on the mailing list indicated that
>> they can not influence the AP, but most here have not read it.
>>
>> Kurtis Lindqvist : If there are no other questions I'll see you all on
>> Thursday.
>>
>> FINISH
>>
>> NO ACTIONS
>>
>> _______________________________________________________________
>>
>> Slot 2, Thursday 4/9 11.00-12.30
>>
>> 5.      Presentation on X.509 and certificates (by
>>         Dirk-Willem van Gulik - apache)
>>         Discussions around the x.509 implementation of the RIPE NCC
>>         and what other RIRs have done.
>> 6.      DNS Services - Modification Plans (Olaf Kolkman)
>> 7.      Proposals from the community
>> 8.      Discussion & input time / Open Mic session
>> X.      AOB
>> Z.      Close
>>
>> ________________________________________________________________
>>
>> 5.      Presentation on X.509 and certificates (by
>>         Dirk-Willem van Gulik - apache)
>>         Discussions around the x.509 implementation of the RIPE NCC
>>         and what other RIRs have done.
>>
>> Kurtis Lindqvist: As there were quite a lot of questions on the
>> mailing list about X.509, we will have a presentation about it and
>> also invite the other RIRs to explain what they are doing in their
>> region.  Also, at the last session I forgot to mention that we might
>> require a co-chair, as it is mentioned in the charter.
>>
>> Dirk-Willem van Gulik: This presentation focuses mainly on the issue
>> of trust, not as much on the technical aspects of X.509
>>
>> http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-46/presentations/ripe46- 
>> nccserv-pki-x509.pdf
>>
>> Kurtis Lindqvist : any questions ?
>> [None]
>>
>> Presentation by Andrei Robachevsky, Chief Technical Officer, Ripe NCC
>>
>>              "PKI development at the RIPE NCC"
>> http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-46/presentations/ripe46- 
>> nccserv-pki.pdf
>>
>> Kurtis Lindqvist: any questions?
>>
>> Taiji Kimura from JPNIC: are there plans for non-repudiation of the
>> query, validate queries to the DB?
>>
>> Andrei Robachevsky : no, this is not about the DB itself, but more
>> about correspondence with the NCC.
>>
>> Wilfried Woeber (DB WG Chair): We have been discussing whether we want
>> to introduce a system to tag objects in the DB with the auth method
>> that was used for the last update of the object. This is an idea that
>> we have been playing with, if the community wants this, then please
>> come forward with a plan.
>>
>> Wilfried Woeber: About integrating a Certification Authority across
>> RIRs, I would recommend to first try it in our region, find out if it
>> works well. I'm not a fan of having hierarchy in the trust
>> model. Individual registries should do it in their region, then we
>> find out what we need to cross the borders. I would not like RIRs to
>> all go to Verisign for instance.
>>
>> Janos Zsako (RIPE NCC Executive Board): about message signing, we live
>> with the assumptions that the db is in a secure server, so whether
>> after the modification/update with PKI the data is still stable is
>> questionable. We can store the update method, again assuming that the
>> db cannot be corrupted in the mean time. So we need a system that
>> verifies that the db has not been corrupted.
>>
>> Kurtis Lindqvist: in conclusion, issue is if queries and/or DB entries
>> must be signed, and whether the content of the DB is secure, but this
>> is maybe more a topic for the DB WG.
>>
>> ARIN - Ginny Listman:
>>
>> http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-46/presentations/ripe46- 
>> nccserv-arin-x509.pdf
>>
>> APNIC - Anne Lord: we are doing the same as Ripe NCC, issuing
>> certificates for our equivalent of the LIR Portal, MyApnic. We have
>> issued 500 certificates so far.
>>
>> LACNIC Raul Echeberria: we would like to implement a certification
>> system before 2004. Right now we are still working on the budget that
>> would be needed for it.
>>
>> Kurtis Lindqvist: Thank you all.
>>
>> 6.      DNS Services - Modification Plans (Olaf Kolkman)
>>
>> http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-46/presentations/ripe46- 
>> nccserv-rdns.pdf
>>
>> Kurtis Lindqvist : I like the idea, any questions ?
>> [None]
>>
>> 7.      Proposals from the community
>> 8.      Discussion & input time / Open Mic session
>>
>> Kurtis Lindqvist: Now we have the open mike session: floor is open. In
>> future sessions I would like to have people's presentations or
>> proposals in writing on the mailing list before they are presented at
>> RIPE Meetings
>>
>> Hank Nussbacher (IUCC): I have been asked by many people to speak up
>> during this WG as I have sent some emails to the mailing list. My view
>> is that a lot of the members had their budget cut and the NNC has not
>> had their budget cut in the same fashion. We are apathetic, 2250 euro
>> is not that much to warrant that people can spend 250 euro/1 hour of
>> their time on the mailing list. There are many good things in the NCC:
>> DB group is the world leader. But to evaluate how the NCC is spending
>> their money we need a more transparent Activity Plan. For instance for
>> the trainings, they are free of charge. I would like to know the
>> budget and man-power needed for these free trainings. Instead, it's
>> budget is incorporated in the RS budget, there is no way to know how
>> much of that is used for the trainings, there is no break-down of the
>> costs. The TTM group, IRT - there has been nothing mentioned about it
>> at this meeting BTW - there is nothing about it in the AP, therefore
>> we do not know the manpower and budget it needs, the only way to know
>> for the membership is to have a break-down and it does not exist. 10
>> to 20 people have responded to my mails, which is not really enough to
>> know what the majority of the community thinks about these issues.
>>
>> Kurtis Lindqvist : yes, people do not care, like we saw at the last
>> session on Tuesday, that only a handful read the AP. I guess the
>> majority is happy, but that is difficult to double-check, people do
>> not go on the mailing list only to say that they are happy. Next year
>> at the RIPE Meeting in May, the NCC will give more insight on the
>> budget & AP and there will be more time for comment before the Annual
>> Meeting 3 months later.
>>
>> Axel Pawlik: The level of detail we give in the financial report,
>> question is: how deep should we go into detail? For the trainings yes,
>> not so difficult. I will work together with the Board to see what we
>> can adapt. And I would like to clarify that the IRT is not really an
>> incident response team, it is not a separate team as such. It is an
>> activity.
>>
>> Hank Nussbacher : let's say that the TTM group costs a 300.000
>> euros/year, but we can get the same service from a commercial
>> company. Why not do a market survey before introducing a new activity?
>>
>> Axel Pawlik: About the TTM, there is a lot of info about it in the AP.
>>
>> Daniel Karrenberg: I worry because of economic problems. Training, if
>> the membership wants more transparency, OK, but whether it is really
>> necessary? Why train New LIRs, what do I care? As one of the persons
>> who started with these trainings, I would like to clarify that they
>> are not done only for the benefit of the trainee, but to the whole
>> community as well. Creating a well oiled community. The better things
>> work, the less interaction at the NCC. Also, the NCC would not be as
>> accepted without trainings. For many people, it is only by attending
>> the courses that they understand and accept the NCC's role.  Just
>> looking at it from a financial point of view, if you do that too much,
>> you might risk the NCC as a whole organisation. You want and need the
>> NCC to be more stable than the rest of the members. The impact of the
>> NCC crumbling is a whole lot different. I also would like to remind
>> people that one of the ways for us to ensure impartiality and
>> neutrality is by hiring international staff, this is expensive. Were
>> we to be driven only by financials, we would not hire from Turkey or
>> Africa. Yes, lets have a look at the financials, but lets us not be
>> driven by it. Because it might be good for today, but not for
>> tomorrow.
>>
>> Kurtis Lindqvist: I agree, but showing the members the budget is not
>> saying that you are doing things bad. There are 2 issues:
>> 1) transparency on costs and
>> 2) evaluation of activities and how they benefit the community.
>>
>> Hank Nussbacher: Some services are excellent. But whether it benefits
>> the community that someone goes to all the ICANN Meetings, it is
>> needed, but the members might think it is not. In the same way that
>> the Membership would live, accept to still have mail-from auth, but we
>> have it better.
>>
>> Kurt Kayser (N-IX Nurnberg Internet eXchange) : About the trainings, a
>> while back I proposed to find partners in countries, we could offer
>> the service to train people in German, since we are very familiar with
>> all the policies & procedures. But I never heard anything about this
>> from the NCC.
>>
>> Axel Pawlik : We are looking at better ways of doing our
>> trainings. People like our trainings but it does not scale, your
>> proposal does scale. But how do we do it, how is that training
>> standardised, do we need to certify trainers ??? But we are definitely
>> looking at it.
>>
>> Daniel Bovio (RIPE NCC Board): Hank said that the "silent majority" do
>> not care to show up at meetings, or communicate on the
>> mailing-list. This is a problem, they do not know what the activities
>> are. We, the RIPE Community, have always been the main source for
>> ideas to the NCC and their activities. The Board needs to go on with
>> these activities anyway, try to involve members, find out what they
>> want, the survey was good in this respect. This group is the main
>> source of the main ideas, there is a vast group that don't care,
>> others do and those end up leading were the ship is going. We do not
>> get enough feedback.
>>
>> Kurtis: Thank you all for coming
>>
>> FINISH
>>
>> NO ACTIONS
>>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: RIPE 46 -minutes NCC Services.doc
Type: application/msword
Size: 64512 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: </ripe/mail/archives/ncc-services-wg/attachments/20030930/8ec8920c/attachment.doc>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: PGP.sig
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 174 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: </ripe/mail/archives/ncc-services-wg/attachments/20030930/8ec8920c/attachment.sig>