[ncc-regional-middle-east] Regional Peering
Malik Awan mawan at cmu.edu
Mon May 29 07:36:28 CEST 2006
Dear AbdulMajeed, Yes, I understand this dual homed connectivity for QF (Education City) to NY and LA and the latency issues. That's why, in order to avoid the specific customer (QF) scenario, I resent all tracert(s) from my home ADSL which shows a true Internet Connectivity picture from Qtel-ISP's perspective. I am pasting those tracert and latency numbers below again for your review (sorry to others for duplicate info.) Country Latency (ms) Router Hops in Transit AS ========= =========== ========================= BAHRAIN 30 0 KUWAIT 50 0 UAE 27 0 OMAN 585 14 SAUDI ARABIA 465 6 SUDAN 362 2 ==============QATAR-TO-BAHRAIN=========== C:\>tracert www.banagas.com.bh Tracing route to www.banagas.com.bh [193.188.101.18] over a maximum of 30 hops: 1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 192.168.0.1 2 15 ms 16 ms 15 ms 213.130.127.166 3 18 ms 17 ms 16 ms 213.130.114.25 4 16 ms 16 ms 17 ms 82.148.96.186 5 18 ms 18 ms 18 ms 82.148.96.181 6 18 ms 18 ms 17 ms 82.148.96.254 7 24 ms 24 ms 23 ms 212.77.216.254 8 28 ms 24 ms 36 ms 217.17.233.69 9 30 ms 26 ms 28 ms 217.17.233.69 10 37 ms 36 ms 39 ms 193.188.104.46 11 35 ms 34 ms 34 ms 193.188.101.2 12 34 ms 57 ms 33 ms 193.188.101.18 Trace complete. C:\>tracert www.batelco.bh <http://www.batelco.bh/> Tracing route to www.batelco.bh [193.188.112.40] over a maximum of 30 hops: 1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 192.168.0.1 2 15 ms 16 ms 15 ms 213.130.127.166 3 18 ms 15 ms 16 ms 213.130.114.25 4 17 ms 14 ms 16 ms 82.148.96.186 5 17 ms 17 ms 15 ms 82.148.96.181 6 16 ms 15 ms 16 ms 82.148.96.254 7 25 ms 26 ms 28 ms 212.77.216.254 8 26 ms 24 ms 24 ms 217.17.233.196 9 * * * Request timed out. 10 25 ms 32 ms 27 ms cblt3.batelco.com.bh [193.188.112.40] Trace complete. ==============QATAR-TO-KUWAIT================ C:\>tracert www.kt.com.kw Tracing route to kt.com.kw [195.226.228.4] over a maximum of 30 hops: 1 1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 192.168.0.1 2 15 ms 15 ms 16 ms 213.130.127.166 3 17 ms 16 ms 17 ms 213.130.114.25 4 16 ms 15 ms 16 ms 82.148.96.186 5 16 ms 18 ms 16 ms 82.148.96.138 6 18 ms 18 ms 18 ms 82.148.96.206 7 21 ms 16 ms 18 ms 82.148.96.66 8 23 ms 23 ms 20 ms 82.148.96.162 9 22 ms 25 ms 23 ms 198.32.72.33 10 29 ms 28 ms 60 ms 195.229.28.13 11 29 ms 28 ms 28 ms dxb-emix-ra.ge1302.emix.ae [195.229.31.67] 12 27 ms 29 ms 53 ms 195.229.31.107 13 54 ms 55 ms 55 ms 195.229.29.58 14 51 ms 54 ms 54 ms 62.150.200.2 15 52 ms 49 ms 53 ms ns1.qnethosting.com [195.226.228.4] Trace complete. ==============QATAR-TO-OMAN================== C:\>tracert omantel.net.om Tracing route to omantel.net.om [212.72.23.54] over a maximum of 30 hops: 1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 192.168.0.1 2 15 ms 15 ms 15 ms 213.130.127.166 3 20 ms 15 ms 15 ms 213.130.114.25 4 16 ms 15 ms 15 ms 82.148.96.186 5 16 ms 15 ms 16 ms 82.148.96.202 6 * 18 ms 17 ms 82.148.97.66 7 234 ms * 223 ms 12.119.94.77 8 236 ms 233 ms 229 ms 12.123.33.62 9 229 ms 233 ms 236 ms tbr1-cl1474.attga.ip.att.net [12.122.12.121] 10 239 ms 233 ms 234 ms 12.123.20.201 11 228 ms 230 ms 234 ms dcr1-so-4-0-0.atlanta.savvis.net [192.205.32.118] 12 239 ms 237 ms 270 ms bcs1-so-2-0-0.Washington.savvis.net [204.70.192.54] 13 240 ms 256 ms 238 ms bcs1-so-4-0-0.NewYork.savvis.net [204.70.192.6] 14 238 ms 239 ms 236 ms bcs2-so-6-0-0.NewYork.savvis.net [204.70.192.38] 15 308 ms 310 ms 312 ms bcs1-so-0-0-0.Londonlnx.savvis.net [204.70.192.122] 16 311 ms 314 ms * bcs2-as0-0.Londonlnx.savvis.net [204.70.193.202] 17 325 ms 313 ms * bcr1-so-1-0-0.Londonlnx.savvis.net [204.70.193.121] 18 305 ms 302 ms 300 ms beyond-the-network.Londonlnx.savvis.net [206.24.169.10] 19 232 ms 235 ms 229 ms ge-1.linx.londen03.uk.bb.verio.net [195.66.226.138] 20 * 230 ms 231 ms xe-0-2-0.r22.londen03.uk.bb.gin.ntt.net [129.250.2.65] 21 227 ms 230 ms 230 ms ge-0.flagtelecom.londen03.uk.bb.gin.ntt.net [129.250.10.202] 22 302 ms 304 ms 304 ms so-2-1-0.0.cjr01.nyc007.flagtel.com [62.216.128.233] 23 312 ms 303 ms 302 ms so-3-0-0.0.cjr01.nyc005.flagtel.com [62.216.128.50] 24 369 ms 370 ms 373 ms so-2-1-0.0.cjr02.lax001.flagtel.com [62.216.128.241] 25 586 ms 582 ms * 80.77.0.42 26 582 ms 585 ms 576 ms 82.178.32.21 27 585 ms 584 ms 584 ms 62.231.254.130 28 585 ms 585 ms 584 ms webhost.omantel.net.om [212.72.23.54] Trace complete. ==============QATAR-TO-SAUDI ARABIA=========== C:\>tracert www.astra.com.sa Tracing route to www.astra.com.sa [212.12.160.12] over a maximum of 30 hops: 1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 192.168.0.1 2 16 ms 15 ms 15 ms 213.130.127.166 3 17 ms 15 ms 16 ms 213.130.114.25 4 16 ms 16 ms 15 ms 82.148.96.186 5 17 ms 17 ms 15 ms 82.148.96.202 6 17 ms 16 ms 19 ms 82.148.97.66 7 20 ms 17 ms 18 ms 212.77.200.169 8 248 ms 249 ms 248 ms r42-doha.netw.qatar.net.qa [212.77.201.42] 9 236 ms 241 ms 238 ms softbank219058126017.bbtec.net [219.58.126.17] 10 275 ms 323 ms 259 ms if-6-0.mcore4.NJY-Newark.teleglobe.net [216.6.63.33] 11 403 ms 408 ms 409 ms ix-3-0.core1.NJY-Newark.Teleglobe.net [64.86.84.178] 12 528 ms 531 ms 536 ms pal6-pal7-racc1.pal.seabone.net [195.22.218.209] 13 435 ms 442 ms 433 ms customer-side-saudi-telecom-kacst-1-sa-pal6.pal.seabone.net [195.22.197.198] 14 599 ms 453 ms 481 ms vlan1.ruh-acc4.isu.net.sa [212.138.112.23] 15 447 ms 449 ms 445 ms nour.ruh-cust.isu.net.sa [212.26.19.54] 16 445 ms 451 ms 448 ms mx2.nour.net.sa [212.12.160.12] Trace complete. ==============QATAR-TO-SUDAN=========== C:\>tracert www.canar.sd Tracing route to canar.sd [196.29.160.164] over a maximum of 30 hops: 1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 192.168.0.1 2 15 ms 16 ms 15 ms 213.130.127.166 3 17 ms 16 ms 16 ms 213.130.114.25 4 17 ms 15 ms 16 ms 82.148.96.186 5 16 ms 15 ms 16 ms 82.148.96.138 6 18 ms 16 ms 15 ms 82.148.96.206 7 18 ms 15 ms 17 ms 82.148.96.66 8 162 ms 164 ms 163 ms 62.216.146.201 9 365 ms 366 ms 366 ms 80.77.1.174 10 367 ms 366 ms 364 ms 196.29.160.22 11 364 ms 362 ms 365 ms 196.29.160.164 Trace complete. ==============QATAR-TO-UAE================== C:\>tracert www.etisalat.ae Tracing route to www.etisalat.ae [213.42.25.85] over a maximum of 30 hops: 1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 192.168.0.1 2 16 ms 16 ms 15 ms 213.130.127.166 3 15 ms 16 ms 15 ms 213.130.114.25 4 16 ms 15 ms 15 ms 82.148.96.186 5 16 ms 15 ms 16 ms 82.148.96.138 6 18 ms 19 ms 16 ms 82.148.96.206 7 18 ms 17 ms 21 ms 82.148.96.66 8 16 ms 17 ms 16 ms 82.148.96.162 9 17 ms 20 ms 17 ms 198.32.72.33 10 35 ms 33 ms 72 ms 195.229.28.13 11 32 ms 29 ms 28 ms dxb-emix-rb.ge130.emix.ae [195.229.31.66] 12 28 ms 27 ms 29 ms 195.229.0.90 13 36 ms 35 ms 33 ms 213.42.0.51 14 28 ms 30 ms 29 ms 28 ms 213.42.25.85 Trace complete. Regards, Malik _____ From: Abdulmajeed Akbar [mailto:MAJO at qtel.com.qa] Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 8:07 AM To: mawan at cmu.edu; Salman Al-Mannai; Fahad AlShirawi; Saleem Albalooshi Cc: John Leong; ncc-regional-middle-east at ripe.net Subject: RE: [ncc-regional-middle-east] Regional Peering Hi Mike FYI If you sending your ping or trace from QF (education city ) they you will get two figures. QF is connected with two links to USA, one to NYK and the other to Los Anglos. NYK has a latency of about 200 ms while the LA has a latency of 400 ms. Thanks & Regards A.Majeed Akbar _____ From: Malik Awan [mailto:mawan at cmu.edu] Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 1:03 AM To: 'Salman Al-Mannai'; 'Fahad AlShirawi'; 'Saleem Albalooshi' Cc: 'John Leong'; ncc-regional-middle-east at ripe.net; Abdulmajeed Akbar Subject: RE: [ncc-regional-middle-east] Regional Peering So far we have seen latency of up to 600ms (900ms not seen yet) within the region, which is not good for VoIP traffic. Regards, Malik _____ From: ncc-regional-middle-east-admin at ripe.net [mailto:ncc-regional-middle-east-admin at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Malik Awan Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 4:12 PM To: 'Salman Al-Mannai'; 'Fahad AlShirawi'; 'Saleem Albalooshi' Cc: 'John Leong'; ncc-regional-middle-east at ripe.net; MAJEED at qtel.com.qa Subject: RE: [ncc-regional-middle-east] Regional Peering I would like to add couple of points on benefits of regional peering: 1. Regional peering would bring the bandwidth charges down (due to less transit costs), latency will improve and response time will be faster. All of this will encourage hosting providers to host locally, so more local content and more business for the regional ISPs. In addition, this would also encourage some multinational companies to have their middle-eastern content/services (e-business) hosted locally. 2. The other very important point is Voice-over-IP service. As most ISPs in the middle-east are now planning to launch the hosted VoIP solution (or have already launched), it is very critical to improve latency in the region. Otherwise, the high latency between regional countries (600-900 ms) will not make such services successful and CUSTOMER SATISFACTION and revenues will not be achieved. Regards, Malik _____ From: ncc-regional-middle-east-admin at ripe.net [mailto:ncc-regional-middle-east-admin at ripe.net] On Behalf Of Salman Al-Mannai Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 3:23 PM To: Fahad AlShirawi; Saleem Albalooshi Cc: John Leong; ncc-regional-middle-east at ripe.net; MAJEED at qtel.com.qa Subject: RE: [ncc-regional-middle-east] Regional Peering That is one giant step forward, and with Al-Jazeera in Qatar I don't think the situation here as bad either, except that the availability of hosting services and the pricing. I've included Abdulmajeed in the CC to solicit his view. regards _____ From: Fahad AlShirawi [mailto:Fahad at 2connectbahrain.com] Sent: Thu 5/25/2006 3:00 PM To: Salman Al-Mannai; 'Saleem Albalooshi' Cc: 'John Leong'; ncc-regional-middle-east at ripe.net Subject: RE: [ncc-regional-middle-east] Regional Peering If I ever find that chicken, I'm not letting it out of my site. As to the content issue, you are correct. However, we have started seeing change in that regards in Bahrain. We are offering hosting companies packages very closely resembling the pricing they get from the US and while the margins are very small, it is worth it in the long term. Fahad. -----Original Message----- From: Salman Al-Mannai [mailto:salmannai at ict.gov.qa] Sent: 24 May 2006 13:01 To: Fahad AlShirawi; Saleem Albalooshi Cc: John Leong; ncc-regional-middle-east at ripe.net Subject: RE: [ncc-regional-middle-east] Regional Peering Furthermore, John has illustrated an extreme case of the little intra traffic, that may not prove the economy of the peering, I think the reason is: 1. most of the Web sites are hosted in the use (99% of them !), why? simply because, web hosting is offered much cheaper, abandons of bandwidth, etc. my focus here is on the abandons of bandwidth. 2. there is no simple mean by which we can identify the traffic whither it is destined to a neighbor or outside - without a detailed analysis, so we are not in a position to tell how much traffic we are exchange among each other. 3. Key contents providers are hosting their contents in places outside, mainly for political reasons, but many for technical reasons, I'm sure if that technical limitation is lifted, we might see at least 50% of contents providers coming back home. -- let us have the chicken that lays the eggs (make'em gold please). regards _____ From: ncc-regional-middle-east-admin at ripe.net on behalf of Salman Al-Mannai Sent: Wed 5/24/2006 12:44 PM To: Fahad AlShirawi; Saleem Albalooshi Cc: John Leong; ncc-regional-middle-east at ripe.net Subject: RE: [ncc-regional-middle-east] Regional Peering Thanks Fahad, I feel we need to physically get together and have real serious discussions on how to go forward. The issue pertaining to 'tracert': my analogy is that the traffic may not flow through the shortest route, rather the optimum, this is one, two, I don't find 2 MB between UAE and Bahrain, or any two countries for that matter, is something good to celebrate for, this is the bandwidth I have at home. I sometimes find the reports produced by MRTG are missleading , the bottem line, FOG is already in place, and I can confidently say, it is accoumilating 'age' ea. wasted bandwidth. We have so far, managed to peer with UAE (Qtel <-> Etisalat) over DS3 (45 Mbs) - I still find it too little, perhaps we upgrade to STM-1, or even STM-4 if someone can initiate more applications (such as e-gov, e-trade with businesses in both countries, media stuff, etc.), Abdulla Hashem from eCompany and myslef have tried to initiate the same with BIX, that has not completed yet!. The idea is let us just have that thick pipe among GCC in place, and we let the business to realize its potential and start filling it up, I'm sure there are many marketing guys out there who will find it a business opportunity and will probably come back to us for more. regards _____ From: Fahad AlShirawi [mailto:Fahad at 2connectbahrain.com] Sent: Wed 5/24/2006 12:30 PM To: Salman Al-Mannai; 'Saleem Albalooshi' Cc: 'John Leong'; ncc-regional-middle-east at ripe.net Subject: RE: [ncc-regional-middle-east] Regional Peering Salman, We have indeed discussed those contents and this approach. I think I agree with you and your proposal more than any other. It is the best setup overall and allows for significant diversity in the connectivity and the peering arrangements. Saleem, The issue is not if there exists a peering link. Yes, it is there. However, as I sit here in Bahrain and tracert a site in the UAE, I still go via the US. I don't think this is because the setup is not right. I think it is simply because a 2Mbps peering link cannot handle the volume of traffic that needs to flow in between our countries. Of course, I have no statistics on usage of those links and I don't put the full blame on the bandwidth, but I do think we need to do something about it. I'm seconding Salman's proposal and saying we don't need to wait for a GCC telecom committee to get together to do this. Especially since not everyone involved is a member of such a committee. Regards, Fahad. -----Original Message----- From: Salman Al-Mannai [mailto:salmannai at ict.gov.qa] Sent: 24 May 2006 11:10 To: Saleem Albalooshi; Fahad AlShirawi Cc: John Leong; ncc-regional-middle-east at ripe.net Subject: RE: [ncc-regional-middle-east] Regional Peering Dear Saleem and Fahad, I do understand Fahad's concenrs, that is why I'm for the IX-IX peering appraoch in the GCC, this matter has been pursued by Saleem and Mr. Aabdulla Hashem. however, we still need some political levrage in order to proceed (ea. to be put on the agenda of one of the GCC telecom committees, and then to be enforced by the respective regulator). second, the idea of pursuing a NAP/NSP, this is purely a commercial descission that is typically assessed from financial feasiblity perspective, while peering will make sense for the obvious reasons that have been mentioned in several ocasions. I also don't find it proper to establish one common place for peer-ers to exchange traffic (ea. GCC IXP) while it may save on linking costs, it may also become an operational burden on the host, and may again add to the cost. my suggestion is to have adjacent peering among niebourghing operators (ex. Oman<->UAE<->Qatar<->Bahrain<->Kuwait<->Saudi Arabia<->Oman - back) I don't meen to set you back by mentioning the above, I just wanted to illusterate situation, I've already passed a presentation (which was done in part by Saleem, he has already given references to his past work on this) which I don't mind sharing with you, if Saleem does not mind. NB: Fahad, we have already discussed the contents of the presentation in January. regards _____ From: ncc-regional-middle-east-admin at ripe.net on behalf of Saleem Albalooshi Sent: Wed 5/24/2006 12:58 AM To: Fahad AlShirawi Cc: 'John Leong'; ncc-regional-middle-east at ripe.net Subject: Re: [ncc-regional-middle-east] Regional Peering Dear Fahad, Thank you very much for your valuable participation. The good new is that all the main ISP's in the GCC countries are already interconnected since 2004. Below are some documents that may help in understanding the peering status between the GCC countries. http://www.gcc-itrc.ae/en/Meetings/first/Presentations.html http://www.gcc-itrc.ae/wgs/ae_kw.html http://www.gcc-itrc.ae/Files/gcc_peering_update.ppt What I now is that Etisalat has built an excellent peering connectivity with most of the countries in the region, for example: 1. All GCC countries (Saudi, Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman) 2. India 3. Singapore 4. Malaysia 5. Cypris 6. Taiwan 7. Japan 8. Hong Kong 9. Sudan Also with some international Exchange points i.e LINEX and NYIIX. and Much more, Mr. Moeen Aqrabawi, could you please help in updating us on the status of the Peering connectivity from the UAE. We need to here from other members in this list on the peering connectivity from their countries. Best Regards, Saleem UAEnic Fahad AlShirawi wrote: >My first contribution to this mailing list: > >John, > >While I definitely agree with your assessment, there are issues in the >GCC that sadly make peering a dream we are all waiting for but are very >unlikely to realize any time soon. On one hand, the PTTs are all looking >to peer with each other, while at the same time are wary of each other. >The only two countries I know off that have appropriate direct peering >are the Emarites and Qatar. Even that is only something I heard and I am >not actually sure off. In any case, when a new player indicates interest >in a peering arrangement, the propose IP Transit. It's the mentality of: >We are big and you are small, why do you need peering? Just take IP >Transit from us. > >On the other hand, bandwidth to the US, once you hit a landing point, is >a lot cheaper than bandwidth controlled by monopolies in the GCC. There >are no IRUs currently between GCC countries and the first cable system >of its kind that will allow someone other than the monopolies to own >capacity is... Well, Falcon, but god knows when Falcon will be complete. >It's over a year late now. Additionally, in some countries, because FLAG >partnered with the PTTs there, they will not sell capacity directly to a >competitor of the PTT but will leave it up to the PTT to control. Their >argument, said in private, is that they can't anger their partners by >selling to a competitor of theirs. Publicly, their position is this: You >don't need the capacity. We are trying to help you. Don't take it. > >When you insist you do, you are ignored. > >As to the NAP issue, there are people working on building one and then >attempting to attract the business. I know Mr. Ahmad AlHujairi who I >believe is a member of this list is doing just that with Gulf Gateway >Internet. I wish them all the luck and success. I would like to see this >happen and I would like to see peering become a reality. Still, I think >they are a long way away from that kind of success. > >In any case, so far, I feel that STC in Saudi is the most open to >negotiations and discussion. > > > >Regards, > > >Fahad. > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: ncc-regional-middle-east-admin at ripe.net >[mailto:ncc-regional-middle-east-admin at ripe.net] On Behalf Of John Leong >Sent: 22 May 2006 11:58 >To: Saleem Albalooshi; ncc-regional-middle-east at ripe.net >Subject: Re: [ncc-regional-middle-east] Regional Peering > > >Sorry for the late response. Yes, it is totally inefficient (and >strange) >to have traffic between the GCC countries to go through the US. > >Not only will it add latency you are also unecessary using up some very >expensive long haul bandwidth. BTW: On latency, while the longer round > >trip propagation delay is clearly a factor, the real pain is additional >router hops. Routers are real nasty since besides queueing delay, they >are >congestion points. The impact of packet loss [on TCP] is orders of >magnitude more than any propagation delay, since you will have to pay >the >direct penality of time out [to discover you have lost a packet] as well >as >suffer longer term side effect of having you transmission window >reduced. > >In any event, you should peer with each other within the GCC. From >engineering point of view, NAP makes a lot of sense. However, >practically, >most of the ISPs do bi-lateral rather than multilateral peering at a >single >location so the NAP's role is somewhat diminished. > >Best regards, >John > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Saleem Albalooshi" <saleem at nic.ae> >To: <ncc-regional-middle-east at ripe.net> >Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 2:26 AM >Subject: [ncc-regional-middle-east] Regional Peering > > > > >>Dear All, >>Kindly find below a writeup about the importance of establishing >> >> >peering > > >>connectivity between the regional ISP's, please feel free to correct >> >> >or > > >>comment on any technical or linguistic information in the writeup >> >> >below. > > >>Saleem Al-Balooshi >>UAEnic >> >> >> >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >----------------- > > > > > ****************************************************************** The information in this email and any attachments thereto, may contain information that is confidential, protected by intellectual property rights, and may be legally privileged. 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