<div dir="ltr"><p>When I look at the references to LIRs from the RIPE NCC board members, I think they are committed to ignoring this discussion. Would be expensive for their employers.<br> </p> <div class="gmail-moz-signature">Wieger Bontekoe<br> Principal Site Reliability Engineer</div><div class="gmail-moz-signature"><br></div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Apr 11, 2024 at 7:43 PM Blake Shepherd <<a href="mailto:blake66@live.co.uk">blake66@live.co.uk</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="msg6819455987483459961"> <div dir="ltr"> <div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> Lets talk about isp's also hording v4 space</div> <div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> Sky</div> <div style="margin:0px;padding-right:48px;min-height:1.375rem"> <div style="line-height:1.375rem;white-space:break-spaces;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <a href="http://90.208.0.0/12" target="_blank">90.208.0.0/12</a></div> </div> <div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> Virgin Media</div> <div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <br> </div> <div style="margin:0px;padding-right:48px;min-height:1.375rem"> </div> <div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <a href="http://86.23.16.0/20" target="_blank">86.23.16.0/20</a></div> <div style="margin:0px;padding-right:48px;min-height:1.375rem"> <div style="margin:0px;padding-right:14px;padding-left:32px"> <div style="margin:0px;padding:4px;min-width:24px"></div> <div style="margin:0px;padding:4px;min-width:24px"></div> <div style="margin:0px;padding:4px;min-width:24px"></div> </div> </div> <div style="margin:0px;padding-right:48px;min-height:1.375rem"> <div style="text-align:right;text-indent:0px;line-height:1.375rem;margin:0px;width:56px;height:1.375rem;display:inline-block;font-family:"gg sans","Noto Sans","Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:11px"> <span style="font-weight:500"> <div style="text-align:right;text-indent:0px;line-height:1.375rem">[18:34]</div> </span></div> </div> <div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <a href="http://86.23.0.0/18" target="_blank">86.23.0.0/18</a></div> <div style="margin:0px;padding-right:48px;min-height:1.375rem"> <div style="margin:0px;padding-right:14px;padding-left:32px"> <div style="margin:0px;padding:4px;min-width:24px"></div> <div style="margin:0px;padding:4px;min-width:24px"></div> <div style="margin:0px;padding:4px;min-width:24px"></div> </div> </div> <div style="margin:0px;padding-right:48px;min-height:1.375rem"> <div style="text-align:right;text-indent:0px;line-height:1.375rem;margin:0px;width:56px;height:1.375rem;display:inline-block;font-family:"gg sans","Noto Sans","Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:11px"> <span style="font-weight:500"> <div style="text-align:right;text-indent:0px;line-height:1.375rem">[18:34]</div> </span></div> </div> <div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <a href="http://86.37.0.0/17" target="_blank">86.37.0.0/17</a></div> <div style="margin:0px;padding-right:48px;min-height:1.375rem"> <div style="margin:0px;padding-right:14px;padding-left:32px"> <div style="margin:0px;padding:4px;min-width:24px"></div> <div style="margin:0px;padding:4px;min-width:24px"></div> <div style="margin:0px;padding:4px;min-width:24px"></div> </div> </div> <div style="margin:0px;padding-right:48px;min-height:1.375rem"> <div style="text-align:right;text-indent:0px;line-height:1.375rem;margin:0px;width:56px;height:1.375rem;display:inline-block;font-family:"gg sans","Noto Sans","Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:11px"> <span style="font-weight:500"> <div style="text-align:right;text-indent:0px;line-height:1.375rem">[18:34]</div> </span></div> </div> <div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <a href="http://86.36.192.0/18" target="_blank">86.36.192.0/18</a></div> <div style="margin:0px;padding-right:48px;min-height:1.375rem"> <div style="margin:0px;padding-right:14px;padding-left:32px"> <div style="margin:0px;padding:4px;min-width:24px"></div> <div style="margin:0px;padding:4px;min-width:24px"></div> <div style="margin:0px;padding:4px;min-width:24px"></div> </div> </div> <div style="margin:0px;padding-right:48px;min-height:1.375rem"> <div style="text-align:right;text-indent:0px;line-height:1.375rem;margin:0px;width:56px;height:1.375rem;display:inline-block;font-family:"gg sans","Noto Sans","Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:11px"> <span style="font-weight:500"> <div style="text-align:right;text-indent:0px;line-height:1.375rem">[18:36]</div> </span></div> </div> <div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> <a href="http://92.232.20.0/22" target="_blank">92.232.20.0/22</a></div> <div style="margin:0px;padding-right:48px;min-height:1.375rem"> </div> <div style="margin:0px;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> All fully unused, maybe internal but i doubt it maybe we should ACTUALLY focus on the correct reasons on why we have ran out and why LIRs have declined.</div> <div id="m_6819455987483459961Signature" style="color:inherit;background-color:inherit"> <div style="text-align:left;font-family:"Bahnschrift Condensed";font-size:18pt;color:rgb(118,62,155)"> <b><br> </b></div> <div style="text-align:left;font-family:"Bahnschrift Condensed";font-size:18pt;color:rgb(118,62,155)"> <br> </div> </div> <div id="m_6819455987483459961appendonsend"></div> <hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%"> <div id="m_6819455987483459961divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> members-discuss <<a href="mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net" target="_blank">members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net</a>> on behalf of ivaylo <<a href="mailto:ivaylo@bglans.net" target="_blank">ivaylo@bglans.net</a>><br> <b>Sent:</b> 11 April 2024 18:32<br> <b>To:</b> Kaj Niemi <<a href="mailto:kajtzu@basen.net" target="_blank">kajtzu@basen.net</a>><br> <b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" target="_blank">members-discuss@ripe.net</a> <<a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" target="_blank">members-discuss@ripe.net</a>><br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Draft RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Proposals</font> <div> </div> </div> <div><font size="2"><span style="font-size:11pt"> <div><br> By IANA Documents:<br> <br> 053/8 Daimler AG 1993-10 <a href="http://whois.ripe.net" target="_blank">whois.ripe.net</a> <br> <a href="https://rdap.db.ripe.net/" target="_blank">https://rdap.db.ripe.net/</a> LEGACY<br> <br> They are delegated to RIPE. All legacy resource holders must be asked to <br> become LIRs or to find sponsoring LIR.<br> <br> If you dont route public resource, why do you then need and hold such ? <br> Let they free it or pay for it as everyone else !<br> <br> <br> Ivaylo Josifov<br> VarnaIX / Varteh LTD<br> +359 52 969393<br> Varna, Bulgaria<br> <br> <br> On Thu, 11 Apr 2024, Kaj Niemi wrote:<br> <br> > Daimler?s 53/8 is legacy addesss space as is the 25/8 for UK MoD. There are<br> > plenty of addresses that are outside of RIR control for legacy reasons.<br> > <br> > Similarity addresses not being rooted on the internet doesn't mean they<br> > wouldn't be in use elsewhere.<br> > <br> > There isn't really anything to "ignore".<br> > <br> > <br> > <br> > Kaj<br> > <br> > Sent from my iPhone<br> > <br> > ____________________________________________________________________________<br> > From: members-discuss <<a href="mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net" target="_blank">members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net</a>> on behalf of<br> > <a href="mailto:sdy@a-n-t.ru" target="_blank">sdy@a-n-t.ru</a> <<a href="mailto:sdy@a-n-t.ru" target="_blank">sdy@a-n-t.ru</a>><br> > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2024 8:00 PM<br> > To: ROSKOMNADZOR LIMITED <<a href="mailto:admin@roskomnadzor.io" target="_blank">admin@roskomnadzor.io</a>><br> > Cc: <a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" target="_blank">members-discuss@ripe.net</a> <<a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" target="_blank">members-discuss@ripe.net</a>><br> > Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Draft RIPE NCC Charging<br> > Scheme 2025 Proposals<br> > Absolutely agree - it's abnormal situation.<br> > <br> > But now looks like NCC bosses continue ignore it. May be they are under<br> > control on Mercedes-Benz or UK Ministry of Defence??? :-)<br> > <br> > But really, it is look like, it is too difficult to reform charge scheme<br> > in this situation.<br> > <br> > > RIPE saying about last IPv4 /8 is run out, but stop...<br> > ><br> > > IPv4 /8 - Mercedes-Benz Group AG<br> > ><a href="https://apps.db.r/" target="_blank">https://apps.db.r/</a><br> > <a href="http://ipe.net" target="_blank">ipe.net</a>%2Fdb-web-ui%2Fquery%3Fbflag%3Dfalse%26dflag%3Dfalse%26rflag%3Dtrue<br> > %26searchtext%3D53.0.0.0%26source%3DRIPE&data=05%7C02%7C%7Cc7c3d19a075141d<br> > 340b908dc5a48df1e%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C63848451623<br> > 7821753%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTi<br> > I6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C4000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=CGALEu12rMr93jaKbr5Jd%2FSyL<br> > 1T1iEinoJQUm%2BfqbuI%3D&reserved=0<br> > > (over 50% of pool unused! Guess they even didnt have so much cars for so<br> > > much IPs)<br> > ><br> > > IPv4 /8 - UK Ministry of Defence<br> > ><a href="https://apps.db.r/" target="_blank">https://apps.db.r/</a><br> > <a href="http://ipe.net" target="_blank">ipe.net</a>%2Fdb-web-ui%2Fquery%3Fbflag%3Dfalse%26dflag%3Dfalse%26rflag%3Dtrue<br> > %26searchtext%3D25.0.0.0%26source%3DRIPE&data=05%7C02%7C%7Cc7c3d19a075141d<br> > 340b908dc5a48df1e%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C63848451623<br> > 7833186%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTi<br> > I6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C4000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=jY3r3II7kmzvQ8F4p44f392NTta<br> > rv%2F1bfIxkH7IwqIE%3D&reserved=0<br> > > (Never was announced -<br> > ><a href="https://stat.ripe/" target="_blank">https://stat.ripe/</a><br> > .net%2Fui2013%2F%252025.0.0.0%23tabId%3Dat-a-glance&data=05%7C02%7C%7Cc7c3<br> > d19a075141d340b908dc5a48df1e%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C<br> > 638484516237840815%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2l<br> > uMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C4000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XLApVhfQEEQc91fD<br> > 2v2V0QDRVGIthXqJvHaqs%2B6%2Bh4k%3D&reserved=0)<br> > ><br> > > This members hold most biggest blocks in RIPE and didnt use it, but pay<br> > > same - 50 EUR/year for this IPv4 /8.<br> > ><br> > > When some LIRs have /8 and pay for that 50 EUR/year + 1600 EUR/year<br> > > (membership fee), other members paying same amount for 1 x /24 (if they<br> > > have luck!)<br> > ><br> > > Its nonsense, why RIPE continue to funding more and more budgets from<br> > > small LIRs?<br> > ><br> > > Its looks not good. Its looks like a some lobby!<br> > ><br> > > On 11.04.2024 15:52, Dmitry Kohmanyuk via members-discuss wrote:<br> > >> On 11 Apr 2024, at 16:55, Evgeniy Brodskiy via members-discuss<br> > >> <<a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" target="_blank">members-discuss@ripe.net</a>> wrote:<br> > >>><br> > >>><br> > Confidential/?????????????>><br> > >> Just a note: you are posting on mailing list which is archived so<br> > >> everyone can read every post, yours too. Perhaps that line was added<br> > >> automatically:)<br> > >><br> > >>><br> > >>> Why do you think this statement is correct: ?They are the main source<br> > >>> of work for RIPE employees.? ??<br> > >>><br> > >>> Even if you think about auditing or maintaining RIPE DB, it would be<br> > >>> strange to think that working with /16 requires 256 times more time and<br> > >>> effort than working with /24.<br> > >>> If you think about different "non-MAIN" services like Learning, then<br> > >>> there is no difference between big and small LIR at all.<br> > >>> Resources do not reflect all of these dependencies. And again you are<br> > >>> talking about fairness.<br> > >><br> > >> In the fairness of use of learning resources, RPKI, Training you are<br> > >> correct, yet we are talking about ?cost of doing business? resources.<br> > >> Since you seem to represent a biggest mobile telecom of Ukraine,<br> > >> Kyivstar, and also the only IPv6-enabled large ISP in the country<br> > >> (thanks for that btw) - what is your opinion re charging per resource<br> > >> allocated, either by category method, or logarithmic method, or some<br> > >> other (number of resources in use, objects in the database, etc.). Your<br> > >> company makes heavy use of IPv4 and has millions of subscribers: what<br> > >> does ?fair? sounds like to you? Do you support extra fees for those who<br> > >> have IPv4 available, or discount for those who have to make do with IPv6<br> > >> only?<br> > >><br> > >> (Deleting hundreds of quoted lines below.)<br> > >><br> > >> ? <a href="mailto:dk@hostmaster.ua" target="_blank">dk@hostmaster.ua</a> ?We had IPv6 before Kyivstar?<br> > >><br> > >>> -----Original Message-----<br> > >>> From: members-discuss <<a href="mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net" target="_blank">members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net</a>> On Behalf Of<br> > >>> Mihail Fedorov<br> > >>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2024 3:39 PM<br> > >>> Cc: <a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" target="_blank">members-discuss@ripe.net</a><br> > >>> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Draft RIPE NCC<br> > >>> Charging Scheme 2025 Proposals<br> > >>><br> > >>> Charging per ASN is even worse than just price increase. It is terrible<br> > >>> and killing even more LIRs<br> > >>><br> > >>> Imagine rather new LIR who is trying to do business based on what is<br> > >>> LIR intended for - providing LIR services to consumers. For example 30<br> > >>> clients who requested ASN sponsorship during year.<br> > >>> If charged per ASN they will pay twice more than huge corporations<br> > >>> serving only purpose of their own. Those typically have just 1-2 ASNs<br> > >>> and tons of resources attached to it. They are main source of work for<br> > >>> RIPE staff and they should be funding expensive projects like Atlas and<br> > >>> others.<br> > >>><br> > >>> Actually working LIRs also have business contracts/logic already<br> > >>> established on current charging scheme and adding ASN fee will kill<br> > >>> them.<br> > >>><br> > >>> Once again - why not just bill based on resources? It?s extremely easy.<br> > >>> Oh, right, resource holders won?t like it :<br> > >><br> > >><br> > >> _______________________________________________<br> > >> members-discuss mailing list<br> > >> <a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" target="_blank">members-discuss@ripe.net</a><br> > >><a href="https://lists.rip/" target="_blank">https://lists.rip/</a><br> > <a href="http://e.net" target="_blank">e.net</a>%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fmembers-discuss&data=05%7C02%7C%7Cc7c3d19a075<br> > 141d340b908dc5a48df1e%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C6384845<br> > 16237849363%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLC<br> > JBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C4000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=5xPClT5Fo9cbujpjJnhEa0%<br> > 2BXYp%2Bgqis8LyW0aB9q3pk%3D&reserved=0<br> > >> Unsubscribe:<br> > >><a href="https://lists.rip/" target="_blank">https://lists.rip/</a><br> > <a href="http://e.net" target="_blank">e.net</a>%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fmembers-discuss%2Fadmin%<a href="http://2540roskomnadzor.io" target="_blank">2540roskomnadzor.io</a>&da<br> > ta=05%7C02%7C%7Cc7c3d19a075141d340b908dc5a48df1e%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d<br> > 0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638484516237858091%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4<br> > wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C4000%7C%7C%7C&sd<br> > ata=Eks28Oq%2FTG5r5gT9wkniC7VADHmZ8Nw7dbov04Inx2Q%3D&reserved=0<br> > >><br> > ><br> > > _______________________________________________<br> > > members-discuss mailing list<br> > > <a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" target="_blank">members-discuss@ripe.net</a><br> > ><a href="https://lists.rip/" target="_blank">https://lists.rip/</a><br> > <a href="http://e.net" target="_blank">e.net</a>%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fmembers-discuss&data=05%7C02%7C%7Cc7c3d19a075<br> > 141d340b908dc5a48df1e%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C6384845<br> > 16237864817%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLC<br> > JBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C4000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=RZzLuz3ktn8BGrksDewVFVy<br> > 5eQ7MM%2FsgUvOecZojH2k%3D&reserved=0<br> > > Unsubscribe:<br> > ><a href="https://lists.rip/" target="_blank">https://lists.rip/</a><br> > <a href="http://e.net" target="_blank">e.net</a>%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fmembers-discuss%2Fsdy%<a href="http://2540a-n-t.ru" target="_blank">2540a-n-t.ru</a>&data=05%7C0<br> > 2%7C%7Cc7c3d19a075141d340b908dc5a48df1e%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3<br> > %7C0%7C0%7C638484516237870617%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAi<br> > LCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C4000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=sl80S<br> > SCaY3TeMV111wmgzWzt0qgsCCD5TjxTb4KA9Lg%3D&reserved=0<br> > ><br> > <br> > <br> > -----------------------------<br> > ? ????????? ???????? ???????<br> > ??? "????? ??? ???????"<br> > +7(498)785-8-000 ???.<br> > +7(495)940-92-11 ???.<br> > +7(925)518-10-69 ???.<br> > <br> > <br> > _______________________________________________<br> > members-discuss mailing list<br> > <a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" target="_blank">members-discuss@ripe.net</a><br> > <a href="https://lists.rip/" target="_blank">https://lists.rip/</a><br> > <a href="http://e.net" target="_blank">e.net</a>%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fmembers-discuss&data=05%7C02%7C%7Cc7c3d19a075<br> > 141d340b908dc5a48df1e%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C6384845<br> > 16237876231%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLC<br> > JBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C4000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=KTgAjlc9s2VlvMGVIUBdfQg<br> > OaFcz04duH2MOVBVkVu8%3D&reserved=0<br> > Unsubscribe:<a href="https://lists.rip/" target="_blank">https://lists.rip/</a><br> > <a href="http://e.net" target="_blank">e.net</a>%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fmembers-discuss%2Fkajtzu%<a href="http://2540basen.net" target="_blank">2540basen.net</a>&data=05<br> > %7C02%7C%7Cc7c3d19a075141d340b908dc5a48df1e%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b<br> > 55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638484516237881488%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAw<br> > MDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C4000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%<br> > 2F%2FPAq%2Fwp4bjWUAMxWFASb4GHSsKZ%2BlbdVJlWeLLbX%2FE%3D&reserved=0<br> > <br> ></div> </span></font></div> </div> _______________________________________________<br> members-discuss mailing list<br> <a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" target="_blank">members-discuss@ripe.net</a><br> <a href="https://mailman.ripe.net/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://mailman.ripe.net/</a><br> Unsubscribe: <a href="https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/wieger.bontekoe%40productsup.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/wieger.bontekoe%40productsup.com</a><br> </div></blockquote></div>