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<p>Hi,<br>
<br>
For Profit or Non-Profit, the type of organization shouldn’t
influence RIPE fees.<br>
If a non-profit cannot get that minimal amount of revenue in, it
probably is not worth operating and does not bring sufficient
amount of value to its members to be able to even raise enough for
increased RIPE costs.</p>
<p> We are not operating in a vacuum; unless fee increases are
matched by ARIN, APNIC, and others, any increase would further
disadvantage European operators. That would make us Europeans even
more the memeable "Europoors" and at even further disadvantage in
the market place (taxation and bureaucracy being heavy, VAT etc.
are already a huge disadvantage for those of us whose target
audience is global. European private customers significantly avoid
us because of VAT; We have to sell at lower prices than competitor
by roughly the amount of average VAT.)<br>
</p>
<p> Perhaps upkeep of IPs should cost more, that would eventually
start vacating addresses due to upkeep cost, which would lower the
acquire costs.<br>
However, RIPE does not operate in a vacuum. If RIPE is the first
to increase fees and others don’t follow...<br>
</p>
<p> Capitalism is by far the best known way to man to distribute
resources efficiently.<br>
There's nothing else which comes even close for resource
distribution efficiency.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>
----</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p> As a small business owner we have not implemented IPv6 at all,
nor have plans for such. It's too costly for little to no benefit.<br>
All our customers need IPv4 regardless, and no-IPv4 address drops
the marketable price so so very low it's not worth the effort to
do.<br>
From our customer base, maybe 1% or less of traffic would go over
IPv6, and in ~every case, IPv4 is also available. Even the most
prolific IPv6 advocate customer we've had, had to ultimately admit
it would be at most 4-4.5% which would go over IPv6 -- and on his
case, i'm certain he was exaggerating by multitudes.<br>
</p>
<p> Many of our business decisions are driven by the cost of
acquiring IPv4 addresses, and admittedly we've been hoarding a
little bit in order to do a project, and expect to exhaust our
available addresses very soon after launch.<br>
</p>
<p> As costly as IPv4 addresses are, IPv6 addresses cost orders of
magnitude more, even before accounting for the (lack of)
usefulness factor. This despite over 2 decades since first time
using IPv6 (Since the early implementations of IPv6, using HE.NET
tunnel service). IPv6 would actually decrease the performance and
value for our end users, only perception of value would increase.<br>
<br>
Costs are not in hardware, that's cheapest and easiest portion
actually -- even if you have to buy a brand new router. The true
cost is in the administrative side, all of the extra steps and
processes needed to maintain IPv6 addressing, extra security
precautions (some people demand a /56 for themselves, and then
uses a new IPv6 address for each new application start, exhausting
switch/router caches, essentially DOS'ng the network). It all is a
continuous drag and extra work. What's most expensive is human
effort, and if you now take something which used to take 3 seconds
each time, and expand it to be 30 seconds, or even 10 seconds,
multiply it by X times per day, for Y years -- it all becomes
really really rather expensive. You might say "but you can
automate this" -- Someone has to create that automation and rules
first still. All of which exists, is abundant, and well tested for
IPv4 but not for IPv6.<br>
<br>
Personally i do not believe IPv6 will become mainstream ever, for
the basic fact that not everyone will ever support it, therefore
IPv4 is always required.<br>
You'd be surprised from what kind of places i hear customers/end
users being instructed to actually remove IPv6 to have their
network operating more smoothly. Places you'd never expect, and
would actually expect to be advocates for IPv6.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>----</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p> Technical solution; There's been some proposals for "IPv4e",
extending IPv4 addressing by a few bits, as an addon. All of those
proposals have also mixed features and layers, tried to put stuff
not belonging in this layer to it. Just like IPv6. It's easy to
think complicated == good, but reality is, the simplest solution
is almost always the right answer.<br>
</p>
<p> I don't know the low level well enough to do a proof of concept,
but have postulated for more than a decade now that it could be
possible to add "extension", and keep routing the same, only
software updates on the extension area; gateways, client and
server. 10.10.10.10 could have 2 additional segments, extra 16
bits used per packet + how many bits to identify in header this is
extended address.</p>
<p>A packet arrives to 10.10.10.10 and have extension segments of
.5.5 set in the packet headers, therefore target is
10.10.10.10.5.5, and only the 10.10.10.10+10.10.10.10.5
gateway/routers, and 10.10.10.10.5.5 server along with the client
needs to understand the extension. Reaching for 10.10.10.10 would
not have those extra bits set.<br>
In the extended network area devices have to understand this tho,
but only in the extended area, otherwise ARP tables etc. would not
work.<br>
</p>
<p> Since it's just software for the most part, and for the most
part only client & server, this would get distributed over
time like "magic", automatically. Old routers with old software,
old ASICs would continue to work, it's only what comes after them
needing to understand what those bits in the header mean.<br>
In other words; For the first steps of mass adoption, only OSs
need to be updated. Would get adopted more than IPv6 in manner of
a OS lifecycle, initially people could utilize those more like
ports, assign an IP per application as an example, or for IoT.<br>
A decade later, this would automatically have probably 95+%
adoption rate on the OS side, which is more than sufficient for
switching chip manufacturers to add the support for that 16-24bits
required.<br>
<br>
Even the network admins don't need to know this is running at
all, if they don't want to. End users can still benefit from it.<br>
Even better, this probably could be made dynamic, add extension 8
bit segments on as needed basis to a certain maximum. so a /32
could have added /24 or /16 or /8 of added IPs, however many bits
we'd decide as the maximum depth. 16? 24? another 32? maybe even
48 or 64? -- and everyone currently working in networking (or even
somewhat close to) would understand this methodology, it's just
added segments of addressing. KISS - Keep It Simple, St***d!<br>
<br>
For Legacy stuff, NAT works fine, but it could be extended
further to have just translation of extended address to a internal
IP and vice-versa. Computationally, would cost very little, less
than typical NAT.<br>
<br>
Ultimately, everyone would understand this, and would probably
still fit into the working memory of most normal human beings :)
This would not be a paradigm shift in thinking, and could be
metaphorically be described as "special NAT". Just an extension,
an extended range.<br>
<br>
And all this "IPv4e" would do is just extended addressing,
nothing else, nothing more, nothing less. Only that, and nothing
else. No confusion, no ifs, no buts, just Keep It Simple.<br>
</p>
<p> To be fair, this might be Dunning-Kruger effect, i haven't
worked at that low level really ever (a little bit maybe early 00s
crafting packets manually) and there are far more knowleadgable
people who could immediately say do we have means to add those
packet headers. We should, since we got things like LACP, VLANs
etc etc. all of which takes packet header space.</p>
<p>Despite this, I have yet to speak with a network engineer who has
explained why this wouldn't work. Some have even suggested that I
should write an RFC on this topic.</p>
<p>However, i digressed here a little bit off topic ...<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Best Regards,<br>
Aleksi<br>
Magna Capax Finland Oy</p>
<p>PS. I typically only lurk on this mailing list and read only a
few random responses, if you want to discuss IPv4e further feel
free to contact me directly. With your feedback, perhaps an RFC
shall finally be written, a RFC more than a decade in the making.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 01/04/2024 12.35, Mihail Fedorov
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:397715B4-6B4E-488E-B9FE-68696978E224@fedorov.net">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div>Hi Hank!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>No one is assuming any disrespect to IUCC and it’s part in
building internet here. But I just bothered checking (sorry, did
it just for an example) - IUCC owns two /16’s, one /18 and lots
of /20-/22s. Can you check for us how many of them are actually
assigned to some interfaces?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Typically it will be below 10%. If I’m right - that means
that IUCC alone stops at least 576 small non-profit or startup
networks from being legitimate part of routing table.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If I’m wrong - please forgive me and just give me /24 to
subrent :-)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>And yes, I assume that any company who administer 65000
interfaces (65000 computers or routers) should feel affordable
paying ~6500 - ~65000 USD - effectively solving all possible
RIPE financing problems. Except very rare cases of large
non-profit networks.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>P.S.: Each and every small network I see on IX has already
appreciated and implemented IPv6 support. But realistically they
still need some v4. And only large v4 space holders sometimes do
not bother implementing IPv6 at all.<br
id="lineBreakAtBeginningOfMessage">
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On 1 Apr 2024, at 11:49, Hank Nussbacher
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:hank@interall.co.il"><hank@interall.co.il></a> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<meta charset="UTF-8">
<span
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">On
29/03/2024 14:49, Gert Doering wrote:</span><br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
<br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
<span
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">IUCC
was the first paying member to RIPE NCC in 1995 (since
we realized the importance of supporting such a
fledgling organization) and we have paid for our
resources for the past 29 years.</span><br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
<br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
<span
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">See
attached (page 3 of 4 pages - if anyone wants to see the
full 4 page document - drop me an email off-list).</span><br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
<br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
<span
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">Regards,</span><br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
<span
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">Hank</span><br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
<blockquote type="cite"
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">Hi,<br>
<br>
On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 07:04:30PM +0100, Andrea
Borghi wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">My humble proposal is to class
basing on how many additional resources a<br>
company have beyond the basics that was valid at the
time of joining Ripe.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
... and possibly how old these resources are... we got
our blocks in<br>
1995/1996, and they are considered "large" by today's
standards. Back<br>
then, it was what you got as a fast-growing small
ISP...<br>
<br>
So if we really go for something based on allocation
size, adding a<br>
yearly depreciation factor in would make this "more
fair" (... we've<br>
been paying our share for the last 29(!) years
already).<br>
<br>
Gert Doering<br>
<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>--
NetMaster<br>
<br>
<br>
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