<html><head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"/>
</head>
<body>
<p>If people had to pay for such services directly, instead of an
indirect membership fee, I bet the majority of people wouldn't
find these services useful. I for one, do not find Atlas to be
useful. My probe was temperamental and eventually stopped working
altogether several years ago. A replacement request was refused.
We're talking about a re-flashed 10 euro WiFi AP. I haven't looked
at Atlas since.<br/>
</p>
<p>It wasn't so long ago I saw a number of requests on the RIPE
forum for extra credits. RIPE staff took an excess of a month to
respond with free credits to those individuals, which raises
further concerns. Concerns about what the staff are actually
doing, further how credits can be handed out for a service that
costs members indirectly.</p>
<p><br/>
</p>
<p><br/>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/26/23 18:44, Kaj Niemi wrote:<br/>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:AM7P194MB0756206A17749AA25E9994ACCB659@AM7P194MB0756.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"/>
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr" style="">I think that, if you read the
backlog of emails, some people feel that some sets of
services aren’t useful to them for whatever reason(s).<span></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" style=""><br/>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="">To state<span style="font-size:
inherit;"> my own position clearly - I feel like most
services beyond basic LIR aren’t something I’d be
willing to pay for but right now I must. From my point
of view, RIPE is a fixed business cost which I must
have but cannot second source on this continent or
replace if I am unhappy (please do not suggest
changing RIR to another continent). I’m mostly unhappy
with the ever-increasing budget which results in what
I call “mission creep”. <span style="background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none; display:
inline !important;">Perhaps that can be read between
the lines in my writing as well.</span><span></span></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" style=""><span style="font-size: inherit;"><br/>
</span></div>
<div dir="ltr" style="">Just because I don’t feel I get
something out of RIPE doesn’t mean you or someone else
wouldn’t. My suggestions are only that, hopefully
creative alternatives to keep such a service around
while considering my views as well.<span></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" style=""><span id="ms-outlook-ios-cursor"></span><br/>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" style=""><br/>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" style=""><br/>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div id="ms-outlook-mobile-signature">
<div><br/>
</div>
<div><br/>
</div>
<div style="direction:ltr">Kaj</div>
<div><br/>
</div>
<div style="direction:ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex="-1"/>
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Misak
Khachatryan <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:m.khachatryan@gnc.am"><m.khachatryan@gnc.am></a><br/>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 26, 2023 8:04:28 PM<br/>
<b>To:</b> Kaj Niemi <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:kajtzu@basen.net"><kajtzu@basen.net></a><br/>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net"><members-discuss@ripe.net></a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net"><members-discuss@ripe.net></a><br/>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM]
Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Kinda strange that people suggest RIPE to ask
money for free services which they think will reduce
membership fees. But these services, if they are needed by
anyone, or let's say by most, will become just another
indirect membership fee. Or if too few of the members will pay
for them, we just lose all these "nice to have services" due
to lack of funding.<br clear="all"/>
<div><br clear="all"/>
<div>
<div dir="ltr" class="x_gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><br/>
Best regards,<br/>
Misak Khachatryan,<br/>
Network Administration and<br/>
Monitoring Department Manager,<br/>
<br/>
GNC- ALFA CJSC<br/>
1 Khaghaghutyan str., Abovyan, 2201 Armenia<br/>
Tel: +374 60 46 99 70 (9670),<br/>
Mob.: +374 55 19 98 40<br/>
URL: <a href="http://www.rtarmenia.am/" originalsrc="http://www.rtarmenia.am/" shash="G4tR5XHOWryzNM4K/hBJS/Fe2w96H+CERzRe4BPJMGzI/5X2IYvonHRuoOfkSMWi0xCrRzg4UdBFV+HK9vOfl4Hho+Sfp2PwwX9s4lV6+apKyxfdVj0la4I9pOQlEg1ZJaO6eXAtRLPerp+EXSAanA+bRXiCRZ1Z1hGDQj31+u0=" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">www.rtarmenia.am</a></div>
</div>
<br/>
</div>
</div>
<br/>
<div class="x_gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="x_gmail_attr">On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at
6:59 PM Kaj Niemi <<a href="mailto:kajtzu@basen.net" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">kajtzu@basen.net</a>>
wrote:<br/>
</div>
<blockquote class="x_gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex; border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);
padding-left:1ex">
<div class="x_msg-7710360405823863877">
<div style="" lang="EN-US">
<div class="x_m_6715835030769765791WordSection1">
<p class="x_MsoNormal">FWIW, the latest EB minutes can
be found here [1] and pertain to what options for
voting on the charging model will be presented at
the GM in May. Everyone might want to take a look at
it.</p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">[1] <a href="https://www.ripe.net/about-us/executive-board/minutes/2023/minutes-166th-executive-board-meeting" originalsrc="https://www.ripe.net/about-us/executive-board/minutes/2023/minutes-166th-executive-board-meeting" shash="aDDfA7CupOXvwEoFMI4yqK/C4rnRi6VW6Bd+6FmTtGToOE2anr4sZcyI2S6ieeqSGDvs04vkYCFD67EuQkSQAKmtQ+rF5jYNy2r6r2oAT0A3s1luUYD/U1wA1uLJ8i+wrPpyMsa9Yq7PffdB02b/FeJJTpITSUZKLmI8G+sFZcA=" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">
https://www.ripe.net/about-us/executive-board/minutes/2023/minutes-166th-executive-board-meeting</a></p>
<div>
<div id="x_m_6715835030769765791divtagdefaultwrapper">
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12pt; color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12pt; color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12pt; color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;
color:black">Kaj</span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-color:rgb(225,225,225)
currentcolor currentcolor; border-style:solid none
none; border-width:1pt medium medium; padding:3pt
0in 0in">
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Kaj Niemi <br/>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 26, 2023 12:47<br/>
<b>To:</b> Randy Bush <<a href="mailto:randy@psg.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">randy@psg.com</a>>;
Paul Newton <<a href="mailto:paul.newton@f4rn.org.uk" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">paul.newton@f4rn.org.uk</a>><br/>
<b>Cc:</b> Sander Steffann <<a href="mailto:sander@steffann.nl" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sander@steffann.nl</a>>;
Gert Doering <<a href="mailto:gert@space.net" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">gert@space.net</a>>;
<<a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">members-discuss@ripe.net</a>>
<<a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">members-discuss@ripe.net</a>><br/>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [members-discuss]
[ncc-announce] [GM] Consultation on RIPE NCC
Charging Scheme</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">Hi,</p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">It
would probably be better to not single out a
specific service to get rid of just like that but
instead objectively look at the services NCC
provides
<i>and should provide as part of the service
commitment to its membership.</i> To figure out
whether they really are something a RIR should do as
part of its
<i>basic services for LIRs</i> or services that are
value-add. Some of these services can be categorized
as being in the interest of the public, like the
K-root.
</p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">On the
other hand, I don't think anything prohibits
charging for other services, if NCC truly wanted.
Some of the charging models want to introduce
transfer fees, for example, and I do believe people
pay for RIPE meetings, too.</p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">Thinking
creatively about some of the things mentioned:</p>
<ul style="margin-top:0in" type="disc">
<li class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">Training
and certs
<ul style="margin-top:0in" type="circle">
<li class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">This
is a topic where there could actually be a
possibility of upselling
<ul style="margin-top:0in" type="square">
<li class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">many
companies have training budgets</li>
<li class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">many
allow employees to choose how to spend
rather freely (subject to line manager
approval, etc.)</li>
</ul>
</li>
<li class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">NCC
has 14 FTEs doing developing <i>
and doing</i> training, spending around 2
million annually on development of said
services</li>
<li class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">One
would assume that there would at least be some
kind of payback or plan on how to recoup the
costs over time</li>
<li class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">Looking
at 2022 financials, at most certifications
were a 98k euro business in 2022 but since NCC
sold voucher bundles lets assume generously
that 50k of revenue was attributable to 2022
and the other half is classed as future
revenue.</li>
<li class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">Conclusion:
depending on viewpoint the costs are either
20x or 40x current revenue
<ul style="margin-top:0in" type="square">
<li class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">Why
should the membership pay for this year
in, year out?</li>
</ul>
</li>
<li class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">Suggestion:
produce a realistic plan that demonstrates
track to, at least, break even for training
and certifications that includes spent past
costs for X years</li>
</ul>
</li>
<li class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">Network
visibility
<ul style="margin-top:0in" type="circle">
<li class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">According
to NCC there are about 10k atlas probes, there
is RIS, etc. and people seem to find the data
produced genuinely useful</li>
<li class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">If
the data is useful, it should be possible to
quantify its value
<ul style="margin-top:0in" type="square">
<li class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">if
there is value it should be possible to
charge for it</li>
</ul>
</li>
<li class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">Suggestion:
produce a plan that demonstrates roadmap to
breakeven of spent opex for the last X years</li>
</ul>
</li>
</ul>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">As a
side benefit one would have also diversify revenue
away from being 98% to 90% or so membership fees but
at least it would be a start.</p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">Now, if
the answers are “we cannot charge for it, people
will hate us for being greedy”, “nobody would ever
pay for this”, “how can we convince someone to buy
when we have given it for free in the past” - I
think the issue is again that either people do not
truly understand the value of the service or by
itself is not valuable enough to anyone. The world
is full of obscure sources of data for almost any
industry charging for their produced/collected data,
why should the networking industry be any different?
I do not believe it is. In any case, why should the
membership pay for such things?</p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">Alternatively,
one could have “LIR services” package and a “the
megacombo supersized LIR services and extra”
package. Those who want something beyond the basics
can elect to pay for the extra. Of course, for an
organization that would sell SaaS and data, the data
should be valuable enough that people pay for it
year after year. And the services must then be
relevant enough that people elect also to pay for
them year after year, one cannot simply invent
internal projects to keep busy while the money comes
in. If one looks at the annual guides, much of the
time seems to be spent on internal projects to
improve something.</p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">The
ugly truth, however, is that both potentially
monetizable services will not be able to cover any
larger deficits fees from decreasing membership
numbers for quite some years even if they were run
with a criterion to at least break even on direct
costs. Given enough support a membership desiring to
pay less, it would leave as the alternative to
<i>reduce</i> <i>expenditure</i> in various ways.
What normal companies do when times are tough is
first to get rid of consultants. In this case it
would reduce costs per member by 255 euro annually
or on an annual budgetary level by 12.75%. I’m
reasonably sure the almost 200 people working full
time can handle things. Similarly, does everyone
need to be in Amsterdam and does NCC need to market
rates? EU is a large market and there are always
alternatives to nearshore within EU. Does NCC really
need to have an office in Dubai? Just to name a few.</p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">Lastly,
perhaps all of these are great things that should be
paid by the membership? Perhaps the real issue at
hand is that the 22+ folks in Community Building and
Member Engagement, spending 6 million euro inside
the External Engagement and Community unit with 42
FTEs spending about 10 million euro annually - 1/4<sup>th</sup>
of the whole budget - is not able to explain the
wonderful benefits to us, so instead some of us send
emails on members-discuss list and are seemingly
unhappy with the direction things are going? Yeah,
dunno, always a possibility.</p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">Kaj</p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">-----Original
Message-----<br/>
From: members-discuss <<a href="mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net</a>>
On Behalf Of Randy Bush<br/>
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2023 04:53<br/>
To: Paul Newton <<a href="mailto:paul.newton@f4rn.org.uk" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">paul.newton@f4rn.org.uk</a>><br/>
Cc: Sander Steffann <<a href="mailto:sander@steffann.nl" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sander@steffann.nl</a>>;
Gert Doering <<a href="mailto:gert@space.net" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">gert@space.net</a>>;
<<a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">members-discuss@ripe.net</a>>
<<a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">members-discuss@ripe.net</a>><br/>
Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM]
Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme</p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">>
It's beginning to look like rearranging deck chairs
on the</p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">>
Titanic. Spot the odd one out (if I've gathered the
data correctly)</p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">>
AFRINIC. $6m</p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">>
LACNIC. $10m</p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">>
APNIC. $22.5m</p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">>
ARIN. $24m</p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">>
RIPE NCC. €42 = $46m</p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">now
list the services provided to operators by each.
you wanna get rid</p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">of ris,
atlas, many dns services, new engineer education,
...?</p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">to
compare you will have to fold caida's budget into
arin's. oh, and</p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">route
views's too.</p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">this
discussion sometimes reminds me of the US house of
representatives</p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">debt
ceiling discussion. let's cut everything that does
not benefit my</p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">state,
or fossil fuels.</p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">i am a
ripe member because of the real services, open
community, etc.</p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">ya gets
what ya pay for. tanstaafl.</p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">randy</p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">_______________________________________________</p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">members-discuss
mailing list</p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText"><a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:windowtext; text-decoration:none">members-discuss@ripe.net</span></a></p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText"><a href="https://mailman.ripe.net/" originalsrc="https://mailman.ripe.net/" shash="QRkHfQo5Opfr+sY4FYUmhy1Hd0H26uj0Z82mlhPi6nHbV5UHfjUGLXkQs0SSOOFI+uCD7iLytm9jsk2zqY572HCO6MsQothyP2tYcIV6oT7VBnmRnxvH4HBZY22g+6pbA/JORCDGdTPkHvS0HsJ98RrjljSyNWuHXggtXQdxSEU=" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:windowtext; text-decoration:none">https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ripe.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fmembers-discuss&data=05%7C01%7C%7C406989697a5244df756e08db46233018%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638180889206199751%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=TLZNiRRXDcZQ1HAXfZdTGqH0EFlcgNJgMQ3PlIrDy%2Bg%3D&reserved=0</span></a></p>
<p class="x_m_6715835030769765791MsoPlainText">Unsubscribe:
<a href="https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/kajtzu%40basen.net" originalsrc="https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/kajtzu%40basen.net" shash="N+8C1Hsg7XkryLzbTE0ET7+h+KV6vcTLKjJgqNpUqrD4S/yswyrhpEB7BSVg7tORq3WZpU/bMiy3TCstV8gLawBoMs/ZaCqrJStlNN8oUFVL3oD6OacjBA5jZmRac0A94akbaTyPxiBDq79j0562YLrGt0dztIHaPlbTbTRlazU=" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
<span style="color:windowtext;
text-decoration:none">https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.ripe.net%2Fmailman%2Foptions%2Fmembers-discuss%2Fkajtzu%2540basen.net&data=05%7C01%7C%7C406989697a5244df756e08db46233018%7Cd0b71c570f9b4acc923b81d0b26b55b3%7C0%7C0%7C638180889206199751%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iz1ROLVplCGojzJr78CF7yO1mN89ZLWI%2BvD5IM5CkJQ%3D&reserved=0</span></a></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</body></html>