<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"><style></style></head><body lang=EN-GB link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Hi Elad<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>I’m glad you have come back with cogent rebuttals to my pointing out short comings<br><br>I’d like to state that many of the matters I raised are not unsurmountable but whether they are economically and technically feasible does remain to be seen. A working POC would better demonstrate this. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>I will advise specifically that just thinking BGP anycast alone will solve all your problems is fairly short sighted. To give an example, Database replication cannot be simply engineered into being with BGP anycast only. Once a system is in operation yes maintenance might be relatively low but the level of expertise to implement such a complex system should not be under-estimated. It would need one extremely well co-ordinated team for initial project and it would still need a reasonably well resourced team to maintain going forward because again database replication for one is not something you can set and forget, its health needs to be carefully and continuously monitored. I can’t speak in much more depth because there isn’t a detailed technical architecture to comment on at this stage. These are just some of the things you would need to consider and architect around<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>The main problems of your proposal are still fundamentally trust based and the need to get the entire ecosystem using it for it to actually work, and you can refer to the whole IPv6 rollout as a good example of the difficulties of getting worldwide adoption – it will take years even if you get the RIR’s and ccTLD’s on board! I still don’t see a sensible way of gaining trust in a centralised management model and I unfortunately don’t have any better suggestions at this time for the specific use case<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US> Elad Cohen <elad@netstyle.io> <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 27, 2020 2:09 PM<br><b>To:</b> anthony.somerset@cloudunboxed.net; 'Cynthia Revstr�m' <me@cynthia.re>; 'Sascha Luck [ml]' <ripe-md@c4inet.net><br><b>Cc:</b> members-discuss@ripe.net<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [members-discuss] Regarding Elad Cohen's nomination and emails<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Anthony,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Everything that you wrote here are false and incorrect, I only responded to a person that was called an antisemitic and a racist, not by me, but by many other people in the Nanog list.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><ul style='margin-top:0in' type=disc><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo1'>There is comments that “could” be considered defamatory – especially when there is limited to no evidence to prove the comment<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo1'>You continue to harass/bully/attack other members of the list just because they don’t agree with your opinion<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo1'>You are continuing to throw accusations around again without material evidence.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo1'>You are wishing to run for a position of authority which arguably calls you to a far higher standard with regards to how you put your message across<o:p></o:p></li></ul></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>My comments below in green regarding the fallacies that you raised:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><ul style='margin-top:0in' type=disc><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2'>The required infrastructure globally would be phenomenal - <span style='color:#0C882A'>Spamhaus already have such infrastructure in place and they are being sponsored (they don't sell a service at spamhaus.org), so it is feasible</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2'>It would also require far more systems level expertise than is realised (think database replication/caching etc) – especially when you compare this to say, operating one of the root level nameservers or AS112 or RPKI - <span style='color:#0C882A'>If system are designed well and developed well then maintenance is low, I don't see this problem as you do</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2'>It would for many place an unacceptable “single” point of failure in your proposed system - <span style='color:#0C882A'>Bgp anycast deployment will avoid it</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2'>Who would pay for this service? How? What is the pricing model? - <span style='color:#0C882A'>RIRs + ccTLDs Registries , and after it the many site owners that will want their newsletters to reach the mailboxes with 100% reliability</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2'>Centralising the management has issues -<span style='color:#0C882A'> for stability issues bgp anycast will be used, for security and privacy issues - hashing will be used, currently each newsletter subscribers are also centralized, for example mailchimp is a centralized service with many 'mailing list' email addresses. And mailing lists owner will not be obligated to use NoSpam.org - they will still be able to use MailChimp or to save their newsletter system locally - in this case they shouldn't send newselleter with links/images/url's - if their subscribers are using upgraded email clients, simple mailing lists with simple plain text will reach the inboxes - no matter if the domain owner will choose to create a mailing list through NoSpam.org or to implement it on his server with a 3rd party newsletter software.</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2'>DATA protection/GPDR compliance – just because its hashed doesn’t make you any less responsible - <span style='color:#0C882A'>There will be a checkbox in the registration form for the end-user for accepting terms and privacy policy, and any domain owner that will open an account at NoSpam.org will also have a checkbox that he read the terms and privacy policy.</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2'>Risk of hash collisions? – is this an issue to be concerned about? <span style='color:#0C882A'>It's a good point, hashes can be splited - meaning that each email address will have two hashes - for the two parts before and after @ , in order to minimize the risk of hash collision, in a rare case of collision the end-user will see a newsletter that was emailed directly to him but the user didn't subscribe for it, the user will be able to blacklist.</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2'>Like Root Certificates – getting mail client vendors to update just for your system is going to be exceptionally difficult if not impossible) -<span style='color:#0C882A'> once the 5 RIRs and the ccTLDs are ready for this task - I believe that with all of their power it will be possible to recruit client vendors to update.</span><o:p></o:p></li></ul><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Respectfully,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Elad<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=2 width="98%" align=center></div><div id=divRplyFwdMsg><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='color:black'> </span><a href="mailto:anthony.somerset@cloudunboxed.net">anthony.somerset@cloudunboxed.net</a><span style='color:black'> <</span><a href="mailto:anthony.somerset@cloudunboxed.net">anthony.somerset@cloudunboxed.net</a><span style='color:black'>><br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 27, 2020 2:35 PM<br><b>To:</b> Elad Cohen <</span><a href="mailto:elad@netstyle.io">elad@netstyle.io</a><span style='color:black'>>; 'Cynthia Revstr�m' <</span><a href="mailto:me@cynthia.re">me@cynthia.re</a><span style='color:black'>>; 'Sascha Luck [ml]' <</span><a href="mailto:ripe-md@c4inet.net">ripe-md@c4inet.net</a><span style='color:black'>><br><b>Cc:</b> </span><a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net">members-discuss@ripe.net</a><span style='color:black'> <</span><a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net">members-discuss@ripe.net</a><span style='color:black'>><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [members-discuss] Regarding Elad Cohen's nomination and emails</span> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=xmsonormal>Wow well over 100 emails over the weekend on this topic…<o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal>For the record – I have no ties to the Spamhaus project, I don’t personally use it and I can’t say I knowingly know anyone connected to the project in any material way<o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal>Elad – your behaviour and your responses continue to be inflammatory in nature (among other things) despite a good many people saying enough now. Please just stop.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal>Its one thing to have an opinion and air it – I would not want to prevent this from happening but its another thing entirely when<o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal> <o:p></o:p></p><ul style='margin-top:0in' type=disc><li class=xmsolistparagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3'>There is comments that “could” be considered defamatory – especially when there is limited to no evidence to prove the comment<o:p></o:p></li><li class=xmsolistparagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3'>You continue to harass/bully/attack other members of the list <b>just because they don’t agree with your opinion</b><o:p></o:p></li><li class=xmsolistparagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3'>You are continuing to throw accusations around again without material evidence.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=xmsolistparagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3'>You are wishing to run for a position of authority which arguably calls you to a far higher standard with regards to how you put your message across<o:p></o:p></li></ul><p class=xmsonormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal>Remember you have a right to your opinion, just like we also respectively have the right not to listen to it and/or pick it apart as long as we all keep things civilised and follow the relevant good conduct guidelines in effect.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal>This behaviour would quite frankly get you fired at many companies so why do you consider it acceptable here? You ultimately only are making yourself look worse<o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal><b>To the Ripe NCC Moderators/Admin team</b> – if there is some formal channel that I can now make my complaint known or to request at the very least an immediate moderation of Elad Cohen’s submissions to this mailing list please urgently advise. I would like to formally agree with Cynthia and others’ complaints on this matter<o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal>Back to the “idea” that triggered this particular wave of arguments, there are a huge number of fallacies with the idea<o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal> <o:p></o:p></p><ul style='margin-top:0in' type=disc><li class=xmsolistparagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo4'>The required infrastructure globally would be phenomenal<o:p></o:p></li><li class=xmsolistparagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo4'>It would also require far more systems level expertise than is realised (think database replication/caching etc) – especially when you compare this to say, operating one of the root level nameservers or AS112 or RPKI<o:p></o:p></li><li class=xmsolistparagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo4'>It would for many place an unacceptable “single” point of failure in your proposed system<o:p></o:p></li><li class=xmsolistparagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo4'>Who would pay for this service? How? What is the pricing model?<o:p></o:p></li><li class=xmsolistparagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo4'>Centralising the management has issues<o:p></o:p></li><li class=xmsolistparagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo4'>DATA protection/GPDR compliance – just because its hashed doesn’t make you any less responsible<o:p></o:p></li><li class=xmsolistparagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo4'>Risk of hash collisions? – is this an issue to be concerned about?<o:p></o:p></li><li class=xmsolistparagraph style='margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo4'>Like Root Certificates – getting mail client vendors to update just for your system is going to be exceptionally difficult if not impossible)<o:p></o:p></li></ul><p class=xmsonormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal>Now on the matter of centralising the running of such a system is problematic, especially when you consider that this system is fundamentally a trust based system, you are relying in faith that the responsible guardians of said systems are to be trusted to act responsibly and not to the detriment of others. For some operators in the internet space there are known issues of people doing bad stuff (BGP hijacking, internet shutdowns etc) and I know of at least one RIR (not RIPE) that has not exactly operated fully within their own constitutional mandate and processes in recent times. A good friend of mine and work colleague, Andrew Alston, recently wrote a related article about trust and centralisation as it relates to RPKI - <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/rpki-things-being-considered-andrew-alston/">https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/rpki-things-being-considered-andrew-alston/</a> a lot of the comments made there probably equally apply to any proposed mail filtering solution.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal>To be totally frank – the only <b>real</b> way to solve the email spam problem is just to turn off email entirely and replace it with some other better architected solution, everything else is realistically a band-aid that people will find ways around.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal>Kind Regards<o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal>Anthony Somerset<o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=xmsonormal><b><span lang=EN-US>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US> members-discuss <</span><a href="mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net"><span lang=EN-US>members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net</span></a><span lang=EN-US>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Elad Cohen<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 27, 2020 12:59 PM<br><b>To:</b> Cynthia Revstr�m <</span><a href="mailto:me@cynthia.re"><span lang=EN-US>me@cynthia.re</span></a><span lang=EN-US>>; Sascha Luck [ml] <</span><a href="mailto:ripe-md@c4inet.net"><span lang=EN-US>ripe-md@c4inet.net</span></a><span lang=EN-US>><br><b>Cc:</b> </span><a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net"><span lang=EN-US>members-discuss@ripe.net</span></a><span lang=EN-US><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [members-discuss] Regarding Elad Cohen's nomination and emails</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=xmsonormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=xmsonormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Cynthia,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=xmsonormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=xmsonormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>The sick person which you are referring to and is your colleague from "The Spamhaus Project", defamed me for many many months, here in Ripe and in Nanog, he called me by many names without a single proof. He was called an antisemitic and a racist not by me - but by people which are not related to me in Nanog. After many months I provided an official response in Ripe. I didn't hear your voice when he defamed me for many many months with him calling me by many names. So obviously your interests are hidden.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=xmsonormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=xmsonormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>In the other working groups - I only replied to him, and I didn't hear your voice regarding your sick colleague initial message with name callings towards me when I only replied to his attack on me. And his personal attack on me is exactly like your personal attack on me now - you are afraid that an alternative solution to "The Spamhaus Project" will be implemented if I will be elected.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=xmsonormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=xmsonormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Respectfully,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=xmsonormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Elad</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=2 width="98%" align=center></div><div id="x_divRplyFwdMsg"><p class=xmsonormal><b><span style='color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='color:black'> members-discuss <</span><a href="mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net">members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net</a><span style='color:black'>> on behalf of Cynthia Revstr�m <</span><a href="mailto:me@cynthia.re">me@cynthia.re</a><span style='color:black'>><br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 27, 2020 1:50 PM<br><b>To:</b> Sascha Luck [ml] <</span><a href="mailto:ripe-md@c4inet.net">ripe-md@c4inet.net</a><span style='color:black'>><br><b>Cc:</b> </span><a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net">members-discuss@ripe.net</a><span style='color:black'> <</span><a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net">members-discuss@ripe.net</a><span style='color:black'>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [members-discuss] Regarding Elad Cohen's nomination and emails</span> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=xmsonormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=xmsonormal>> The RIPE *NCC* has no business either enforcing "professionality"<br>on the *community* mailing lists - this is the WG chairs'<br>responsibility. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=xmsonormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=xmsonormal>AFAIK there are no WG chairs of members-discuss and members-discuss is a mailing list that the RIPE NCC hosts to let RIPE NCC members discuss RIPE NCC membership related topics, so I think they certainly have business enforcing people to be professional on this mailing list.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=xmsonormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=xmsonormal>I would also like to add that Elad has multiple times on different mailing lists ignored the WG chairs.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=xmsonormal>Also this is happening across a variety of RIPE/RIPE NCC mailing lists that are all hosted by the RIPE NCC and as such I think it is their business to keep them to a professional standard.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=xmsonormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=xmsonormal>> If I'm wrong, where do<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=xmsonormal>I submit the list of people I'd like to see excluded from the<br>community? <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=xmsonormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=xmsonormal>There should not be a long list of people, but when someone is behaving unprofessionally, calling people "coconut", being defamatory towards the RIPE NCC, ignoring WG chairs, I do think that they have gone too far and everything has a limit.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=xmsonormal>Like we wouldn't allow someone to send sales emails to the mailing list as an example, aka limits on what is allowed.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=xmsonormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=xmsonormal>- Cynthia<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p class=xmsonormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=xmsonormal>On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 12:43 PM Sascha Luck [ml] <<a href="mailto:ripe-md@c4inet.net">ripe-md@c4inet.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=xmsonormal>On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 12:02:59AM +0200, Cynthia Revstrm wrote:<br>>I would like to propose that the RIPE NCC ban Elad Cohen from interacting<br>>with the RIPE Community (via Meetings or mailing lists) due to his blatant<br>>disregard for the Code of Conduct and for being hostile towards others in<br>>the community. As the RIPE NCC hosts and manages these lists I think the<br>>RIPE NCC has a responsibility to keep the lists professional and to remove<br>>those who repeatedly ignore what the WG chairs are saying.<br><br>The RIPE *NCC* has no business either enforcing "professionality"<br>on the *community* mailing lists - this is the WG chairs'<br>responsibility. Nor do I think the NCC should determine who can<br>be a member of the RIPE community or not. If I'm wrong, where do<br>I submit the list of people I'd like to see excluded from the<br>community? <br>I think this proposal is the most out-of-order thing I've yet<br>seen in this thread.<br><br>rgds,<br>Sascha Luck <br><br>><br>>- Cynthia<br><br>>_______________________________________________<br>>members-discuss mailing list<br>><a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" target="_blank">members-discuss@ripe.net</a><br>><a href="https://mailman.ripe.net/" target="_blank">https://mailman.ripe.net/</a><br>>Unsubscribe: <a href="https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/ripe-md%40c4inet.net" target="_blank">https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/ripe-md%40c4inet.net</a><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>members-discuss mailing list<br><a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" target="_blank">members-discuss@ripe.net</a><br><a href="https://mailman.ripe.net/" target="_blank">https://mailman.ripe.net/</a><br>Unsubscribe: <a href="https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/me%40cynthia.re" target="_blank">https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/me%40cynthia.re</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></body></html>