<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Perhaps you could enlighten all of us how a company that will be a startup next year (for example) and needs BGP and IPv4 would be able to work if they are not even able to buy IPs from the grey market? Did you even think before hitting the send button ? Really now ...<br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 29 Nov 2019, at 14:57, Lutz Donnerhacke <<a href="mailto:L.Donnerhacke@iks-service.de" class="">L.Donnerhacke@iks-service.de</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">I believe RIPE NCC can disprove your claim by listing IPv4 resources which were given back by (still existing) LIRs in the past.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">And yes, I also support forcing takeback of resources by RIPE (i.e. by revoking rPKI certs) if they are sold to a different party.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt;" class=""><div class=""><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: windowtext;" class="">Von:</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: windowtext;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>members-discuss <<a href="mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net" class="">members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net</a>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">Im Auftrag von<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>NOC<br class=""><b class="">Gesendet:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Freitag, 29. November 2019 13:50<br class=""><b class="">An:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" class="">members-discuss@ripe.net</a><br class=""><b class="">Betreff:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [members-discuss] BLACK FRIDAY IPv4 transfer<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><p style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">Hello,<o:p class=""></o:p></p><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">At the past it was the main idea, that if you don`t use IP`s you return them back to RIPE.<br class="">But, in such case, NOBODY return IP`s back.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">Everyone thinks "we can use them later" OR "what we will do if we need IP`s later and we already returned them".<br class="">Especially now, when no IP`s avail anymore. Who will return ? Ofc NOBODY.<br class=""><br class="">I think that it`s the MAIN REASON why RIPE permit selling when IPv4 is over.<br class="">Bc now, at least somehow, organizations, who need IP`s can receive them. It's better than nothing.<br class=""><br class="">I DON`T tell that I`am not agree with you. I AGREE with you, bc I also don`t like situation with selling.<br class="">But I just can understand RIPE`s decision.<br class=""><br class="">Think about it.<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">-- <o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">С наилучшими пожеланиями :: With best regards,<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">Дмитрий Николаев :: Dmitry Nikolaev<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">On 29.11.2019 14:35, noc wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">It's been a while that I am reading the messages and not answering. <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">But in my opinion, this deserves to be answered. <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">Almost all brokers/operators here try to sell something that they don't own.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">You guys should put something on your heads: the ips don't belong to you. They are NOT yours!<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">The IPs belong to RIPE and RIPE assign you a range for you to use.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">The RIPE transfer was never meant to be used to make profit. It was created to transfer ips between LIRs that need IPs and LIRs that don't need IPs.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">I have seen a lot of "we sell ips from RIPE, ARIN, etc...". You don't sell them. You can't sell something that don't belong to you. Don't you?<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">This topic seriously needs to be handled by RIPE. <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">In my opinion, the IP ranges that are on IP transfers should be taken back by RIPE and given to LIRs in need.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">Regards <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div id="composer_signature" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(87, 87, 87);" class="">Enviado a partir do meu smartphone Samsung Galaxy.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">-------- Mensagem original --------<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">De : Stuart Willet<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:stu@safehosts.co.uk" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><stu@safehosts.co.uk></a><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">Data: 29/11/19 12:05 (GMT+01:00)<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">Para: Kseniya Sokol<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:ksyu@netassist.ua" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><ksyu@netassist.ua></a>,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">members-discuss@ripe.net</a><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">Assunto: Re: [members-discuss] BLACK FRIDAY IPv4 transfer<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">Are you seriously trying to sell IPv4 space via the members discuss mailing list, which is being used to discuss the underhand tactics of people just like you?<br class=""><br class="">I think it's time I pulled out of the mailing list.All I have seen is decent people raise decent points only to be shot down and taken over by Spamy IPv4 brokers.<br class=""><br class="">Congratulations once more RIPE for not being able to organise a proverbial drink up in a brewery.<br class=""><br class="">/me left<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">-----Original Message-----<br class="">From: members-discuss [<a href="mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net</a>] On Behalf Of Kseniya Sokol<br class="">Sent: 29 November 2019 10:28<br class="">To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">members-discuss@ripe.net</a><br class="">Subject: Re: [members-discuss] BLACK FRIDAY IPv4 transfer<br class=""><br class="">Hi<br class="">So here it becomes the same market, and the same propositions as you start to condemned in discussion<br class=""> "RIPE DB T&C violation by brokers"<br class="">We also do have a lot of IP addresses and price is not to high.<br class=""><br class="">Regards,<br class=""><br class="">29.11.2019 12:05, Hassan Dirsanji пишет:<br class="">> Hi guys,<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> An IPv4 block /19 with is a PI allocation available for immediate transfer.<br class="">> Please let me know if you are interested in.<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Regards,<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 13:11 Pablo Serrano <<a href="mailto:info@pabloserrano.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">info@pabloserrano.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:info@pabloserrano.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><mailto:info@pabloserrano.net></a>> wrote:<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> 50$ per ip and free hugs it's a good BF!<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> Nikolay Gorstkin wrote on 2019-11-29 10:32:<br class="">> > :))<br class="">> > Yeah!! This morning I heard a price of $ 40 / per address :)<br class="">> > Anti-BF !<br class="">> ><br class="">> ><br class="">> >> 29 нояб. 2019 г., в 12:27, Bunea Petru <<a href="mailto:suport@bunea.eu" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">suport@bunea.eu</a><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:suport@bunea.eu" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><mailto:suport@bunea.eu></a>> написал(а):<br class="">> >><br class="">> >> I think we can tell for sure this is a reverse Black Friday.<br class="">> Maybe a first in BF history.<br class="">> >><br class="">> >> Sent from my iPhone<br class="">> >><br class="">> >>> On 29 Nov 2019, at 11:24, Sergey Myasoedov <<a href="mailto:kaa@net-art.cz" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">kaa@net-art.cz</a><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:kaa@net-art.cz" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><mailto:kaa@net-art.cz></a>> wrote:<br class="">> >>><br class="">> >>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=""></span><br class="">> >>> I was waiting for such message here, in m-d list!<br class="">> >>><br class="">> >>><br class="">> >>>> On 29 Nov 2019, at 09:42, José Manuel Giner <<a href="mailto:jm@ginernet.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">jm@ginernet.com</a><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:jm@ginernet.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><mailto:jm@ginernet.com></a>> wrote:<br class="">> >>>><br class="">> >>>> Hello,<br class="">> >>>><br class="">> >>>> we're interested to buy (full-transfer) a /22,<br class="">> >>>><br class="">> >>>> If anybody is interested to sell us with a special price,<br class="">> please contact me with the proposal details.<br class="">> >>>><br class="">> >>>> Thanks.<br class="">> >>>><br class="">> >>>><br class="">> >>>> --<br class="">> >>>> José Manuel Giner<br class="">> >>>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://ginernet.com/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://ginernet.com</a><br class="">> >>>><br class="">> >>>><br class="">> >>>> _______________________________________________<br class="">> >>>> members-discuss mailing list<br class="">> >>>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">members-discuss@ripe.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net></a><br class="">> >>>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://mailman.ripe.net/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://mailman.ripe.net/</a><br class="">> >>>> Unsubscribe:<br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/kaa%40net-art.cz" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/kaa%40net-art.cz</a><br class="">> >>><br class="">> >>> _______________________________________________<br class="">> >>> members-discuss mailing list<br class="">> >>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">members-discuss@ripe.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net></a><br class="">> >>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://mailman.ripe.net/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://mailman.ripe.net/</a><br class="">> >>> Unsubscribe:<br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/suport%40bunea.eu" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/suport%40bunea.eu</a><br class="">> >><br class="">> >> _______________________________________________<br class="">> >> members-discuss mailing list<br class="">> >><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">members-discuss@ripe.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net></a><br class="">> >><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://mailman.ripe.net/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://mailman.ripe.net/</a><br class="">> >> Unsubscribe:<br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/nikolay.gorstkin%40gmail.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/nikolay.gorstkin%40gmail.com</a><br class="">> ><br class="">> > _______________________________________________<br class="">> > members-discuss mailing list<br class="">> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">members-discuss@ripe.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net></a><br class="">> ><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://mailman.ripe.net/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://mailman.ripe.net/</a><br class="">> > Unsubscribe:<br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/info%40pabloser" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/info%40pabloser</a><br class="">> <a href="http://rano.net" class="">rano.net</a><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> _______________________________________________<br class="">> members-discuss mailing list<br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">members-discuss@ripe.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net></a><br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://mailman.ripe.net/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://mailman.ripe.net/</a><br class="">> Unsubscribe:<br class="">> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aidinsystem%40g" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aidinsystem%40g</a><br class="">> <a href="http://mail.com" class="">mail.com</a><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">> _______________________________________________<br class="">> members-discuss mailing list<br class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" style="color: purple; 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