<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Hi All,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">3 апр. 2019 г., в 18:55, Sascha Luck [ml] <<a href="mailto:ripe-md@c4inet.net" class="">ripe-md@c4inet.net</a>> написал(а):</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="">On Wed, Apr 03, 2019 at 06:32:06PM +0300, Andrejs Guba wrote:<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">I think that mistakes and typos should be somehow distinguished from cases<br class="">where falsified documents and data is used.<br class="">Let’s say after serious mistake RIPE NCC should WARN LIR. Three serious<br class="">mistakes = closure.<br class="">Falsified documents = closure.<br class=""></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div><div>Yes, definitely!</div><div>There must be compelling reasons for closing a membership. And this decision must be preceded by a specific warning (penalty).</div><div>In addition, cases of forgery (photoshop, fabricated registration documents, etc. ..) and unintentional errors should be treated differently. </div><div><br class=""></div><div><b class="">That is - incorrect data is not equal to falsification!</b></div></div><div><br class=""></div><div><div>For example, when the end-user sends a scan PI-agreement signed by the person that is not in the founding documents (head of department)?</div><div>Will this be considered a violation?</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Or in the agreement clearly shows that the signature is a facsimile and not a real handwritten signature?</div><div>It is indicated that the agreement is valid in electronic form. Is this a violation?</div></div><div><br class=""></div><div>In general, we need a simple and transparent rules describing the purpose of penalties.</div><div>Perhaps it will be good practice to make public information about the penalty on <a href="http://ripe.net" class="">ripe.net</a> web-site and/or create a certain grade scale for each LIR.</div><div>And of course, such steps must be slow, gradual and accurate. No hurry!</div><div><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="">I've yet to hear of a case where the NCC deregistered/closed a<br class="">LIR without giving it ample oportunity to correct any incorrect<br class="">data. This does not mean it *couldn't* though, the contract language<br class="">provides for it<br class=""></div></div></blockquote><div>:)) That is exactly what happened to us ...</div><div>We would like to be able to explain without referring to the procedure of Arbitration, but unfortunately we were not given such an opportunity.</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="">another interesting insertion into ripe-716:<br class=""><br class="">"In the event a Dutch authority orders the RIPE NCC to deregister<br class="">specific Internet number resources, the RIPE NCC may comply<br class="">without following the process or the timeframes described above."<br class=""><br class="">Note that this does not mention any court orders. One wonders who<br class="">the "Dutch authorities" are that can order the NCC to dereg<br class="">resources... Police? Amsterdam Dog Warden? BREIN?<br class=""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>It could be funny if it were not so sad, right now we are seeing the RIPE NCC becoming the REGULATOR instead of the COORDINATOR.</div><div>Considering the latest offers from the RIPE NCC about BGP hijacks, this is similar to how government structures (RKN) operate in Russia.</div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div>P.S. sorry for my clumsy english ...</div>—</div><div>regards,</div><div>Nikolay Gorstkin</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class="">rgds,<br class="">SL<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class="">Kind regards,<br class=""><br class="">Andrejs Guba<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">Dear Maria,<br class=""><br class="">Thank you for the announcement.<br class=""><br class="">I'm moving the discussion to members-discuss.<br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">Other amendments were carried out to align the wording of specific<br class="">sections with the wording used in the rest of the document, the RIPE NCC<br class="">Standard Service Agreement (Sections A.1.2.2.g and B.1.d), and other<br class="">RIPE NCC procedural documents (Section A.1.1). Similarly, changes were<br class="">made to reflect changes in the RIPE Database (both operational and<br class="">structural) and in RIPE Policy requirements (Sections A.1.2.1.1.c and<br class="">B.1.c).<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">I would not call this 'wording changes':<br class=""><br class="">$ diff ripe697 ripe716<br class="">7c7<br class="">< The Member repeatedly provides falsified data or information, or<br class="">purposefully and/or repeatedly provides incorrect data or information (for<br class="">example, falsified registration documents or IDs, incorrect/inaccurate<br class="">contact details, etc.).<br class="">---<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">The Member provides falsified or misleading data or information (for<br class="">example, falsified registration documents or IDs), or repeatedly<br class="">provides incorrect data or information (for example,<br class="">incorrect/inaccurate contact details).<br class=""></blockquote>11c11<br class="">< The Member submits repeatedly fraudulent requests for Internet number<br class="">resources (for example, providing incorrect purpose/need or falsified<br class="">information about the network, etc.).<br class="">---<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">The Member submits fraudulent requests for Internet number resources<br class="">(for example, providing incorrect purpose/need or falsified information<br class="">about the network, etc.).<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">So the word 'repeatedly' disappear and in case of _any_ only document<br class="">mistake, deliberately or not made by the member, the RIPE NCC can call<br class="">this 'misleading data' or 'fraudulent request' and terminate the<br class="">membership?<br class=""><br class="">Thank you.<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">--<br class="">Kind regards,<br class="">Sergey Myasoedov<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">On 1 Apr 2019, at 10:56, Maria Stafyla <<a href="mailto:mstafyla@ripe.net" class="">mstafyla@ripe.net</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class="">Dear Colleagues,<br class=""><br class="">The RIPE NCC Procedural document 'Closure of Members, Deregistration of<br class="">Internet Resources and Legacy Resources' has recently been reviewed and<br class="">updated. The following is an overview of the amendments made.<br class=""><br class="">Section A.1.1 was amended to include situations where both the Member<br class="">and the RIPE NCC agree to terminate the SSA before the usual three month<br class="">period has passed. Other changes were made to avoid duplication of<br class="">information.<br class=""><br class="">Section B.2 was updated to specify certain conditions under which a<br class="">three month timeframe for deregistration of either Member or End User<br class="">resources would be unreasonable.<br class=""><br class="">The wording in Section B.2.1 was amended to clarify that during the<br class="">deregistration process the Member is not allowed to make new<br class="">announcements using the resources to be deregistered, and that the RIPE<br class="">NCC will update the maintainer on all the Member's resource objects -<br class="">not just on the inetnum object.<br class=""><br class="">Section B.2.2 was amended to bring about alignment of the procedures for<br class="">the deregistration of End User and Member resources and to clarify that<br class="">if an End User does not have a sponsoring LIR when the deregistration<br class="">procedure is initiated, they must first establish a contractual<br class="">relationship with one before they can object to that procedure.<br class=""><br class="">Other amendments were carried out to align the wording of specific<br class="">sections with the wording used in the rest of the document, the RIPE NCC<br class="">Standard Service Agreement (Sections A.1.2.2.g and B.1.d), and other<br class="">RIPE NCC procedural documents (Section A.1.1). Similarly, changes were<br class="">made to reflect changes in the RIPE Database (both operational and<br class="">structural) and in RIPE Policy requirements (Sections A.1.2.1.1.c and<br class="">B.1.c).<br class=""><br class="">Please see here the relevant link:<br class=""><a href="https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-716/" class="">https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-716/</a><br class=""><br class="">Kind regards,<br class=""><br class="">Maria Stafyla<br class="">Legal Counsel<br class="">RIPE NCC<br class=""></blockquote><br class=""><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">members-discuss mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" class="">members-discuss@ripe.net</a><br class="">https://mailman.ripe.net/<br class="">Unsubscribe:<br class="">https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/lir%40private.lv<br class=""><br class=""></blockquote><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">members-discuss mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" class="">members-discuss@ripe.net</a><br class="">https://mailman.ripe.net/<br class="">Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/ripe-md%40c4inet.net<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">members-discuss mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" class="">members-discuss@ripe.net</a><br class="">https://mailman.ripe.net/<br class="">Unsubscribe: https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/nikolay.gorstkin%40gmail.com<br class=""></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>