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<DIV>Bruno has it’s point.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Legacy parts of the space should be reclaimed, but only ICANN has the power
to do so.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I don’t like to call it a thief, I’d rather say as all IP space is rented
(owning a number isn’t bright), all that rented space, wherever it is legacy or
current should be re-audited to justify the reason of use.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000"><BR>--<BR>Alex
Lobachov<BR>Telenet, sia<BR>Network Systems Engineer<BR>LinkedIn:
https://lv.linkedin.com/in/allxll<BR>E-mail: alxl@telenet.lv<BR>Skype:
alxl__<BR>Direct office: +371 67886224<BR>Office: +371 67711111<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; 
FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=bruno.carvalho@xrv.pt
href="mailto:bruno.carvalho@xrv.pt">Bruno Carvalho</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Monday, May 14, 2018 2:04 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=members-discuss@ripe.net
href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net">members-discuss@ripe.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [members-discuss] VL: IP transfer
(in)security</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; 
FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<P>William,</P>
<P>Legacy or not, at one point a regulation was introduced. And everyone should
be regulated (pre-RIR or not).</P>
<P>Is the same has if you own a car from back the traffic laws (1800 years?). If
you drive it now, you have to comply with all the laws that regulate the
sector.<BR>Why the legacy address space owners shouldn't have to comply with the
actual regulations?</P>
<P>If we look deep on the spaces between 0.0.0.0 and 255.255.255.255 (that are
not local or bogons), i bet that most than 50% are legacy and not used.</P>
<DIV>---<BR>
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      <P style="TEXT-ALIGN: center">Bruno Carvalho (CEO xrv.pt) | +351 300 404
      316<BR><SPAN
      style="FONT-FAMILY: webdings; COLOR: #009900">P</SPAN> <SPAN
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<P> </P>
<P>On 2018-05-14 12:46, William wrote:</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0.4em; MARGIN: 0px; 
BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.4em"
type="cite"><!-- html ignored --><!-- head ignored --><!-- meta ignored -->
  <DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 16px; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma; DIRECTION: ltr">
  <DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 16px; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma"> </DIV>These are
  legacy. They are not RIR business.
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>No RIR can reclaim them (and reclaim is plainly wrong, they never owned
  them, this is pre-RIR space), they are private property.</DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>Taking them is theft and nothing else, no matter how you phrase it.</DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma">--</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma">William Weber</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma">Consulting, Security & Management -
  Tel-Aviv, Israel / Rijeka, Croatia</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma"> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma"><A style="CURSOR: pointer"
  href="https://ip6.im/" rel="noopener noreferrer"
  target=_blank>https://ip6.im</A> - No RIPE LIR? Still read this email for some
  reason? Grab a /40 *free* IPv6 space for BGP usage. Or just get it anyway,
  can't hurt to have.</DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV><BR><BR>
  <DIV>On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 12:27, Bunea TELECOM <suport@bunea.eu>
  wrote:</DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE
  style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0.4em; MARGIN: 
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  type="cite">
    <DIV>
    <DIV
    style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: 
after-white-space">I
    agree,
    <DIV> </DIV>
    <DIV>There are tens of /8's available, some of them even unannounced. For
    example there are lots of entities which if they would gave up (even
    partially) of their unused blocks, it would push the IPv4 complete exaustion
    to 2020+. </DIV>
    <DIV> </DIV>
    <DIV>Thanks,</DIV>
    <DIV>Petru<BR>
    <DIV>
    <DIV
    style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; FONT-FAMILY: helvetica; FONT-VARIANT: normal; 
WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FONT-WEIGHT: 
normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; TEXT-INDENT: 
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px">—</DIV>
    <DIV
    style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; FONT-FAMILY: helvetica; FONT-VARIANT: normal; 
WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FONT-WEIGHT: 
normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; TEXT-INDENT: 
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px">
    <DIV style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal">
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    style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: 
after-white-space">
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    <DIV>
    <DIV
    style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: 
after-white-space">
    <DIV>
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    <DIV>
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    style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: 
after-white-space">
    <DIV>
    <DIV>
    <DIV
    style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: 
after-white-space">
    <DIV>
    <DIV
    style="LINE-HEIGHT: 
normal"> </DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR
    style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; FONT-FAMILY: helvetica; FONT-VARIANT: normal; 
WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FONT-WEIGHT: 
normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; TEXT-INDENT: 
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><SPAN
    style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; FONT-FAMILY: helvetica; FONT-VARIANT: normal; 
WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FONT-WEIGHT: 
normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; TEXT-INDENT: 
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><SPAN
    style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; FONT-FAMILY: helvetica; FONT-VARIANT: normal; 
WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FONT-WEIGHT: 
normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; TEXT-INDENT: 
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><SPAN><IMG
    src="cid:4F78415B98D74133B4D66DB63D704495@asmodeus"></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN>
    <DIV
    style="WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: 
#000000; FONT: 12px helvetica; LETTER-SPACING: normal; TEXT-INDENT: 
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><SPAN
    style="DISPLAY: inline"><BR><BR><BR><BR><STRONG>Petru
    Bunea</STRONG></SPAN> <SPAN style="DISPLAY: inline">/</SPAN> <SPAN
    style="DISPLAY: inline">CEO</SPAN> <SPAN
    style="DISPLAY: inline"><BR></SPAN><A
    style="TEXT-DECORATION: none; COLOR: #477ccc; DISPLAY: inline"
    href="mailto:suport@bunea.eu">suport@bunea.eu</A><SPAN
    style="DISPLAY: inline"> / </SPAN><SPAN style="DISPLAY: inline"><A
    href="tel:+40752481282" rel="noopener noreferrer"
    target=_blank>+40752481282</A></SPAN></DIV><SPAN
    style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; FONT-FAMILY: helvetica; FONT-VARIANT: normal; 
WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FONT-WEIGHT: 
normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; TEXT-INDENT: 
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><SPAN
    style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; COLOR: #212121; DISPLAY: inline">Bunea
    TELECOM</SPAN> / DATACENTER / APP DEVELOPMENT<SPAN
    style="DISPLAY: inline"><BR></SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: #212121"></SPAN><SPAN
    style="COLOR: #212121"></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
    style="COLOR: #212121"></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
    style="COLOR: #212121"></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN><A
    style="TEXT-DECORATION: none; COLOR: #477ccc; DISPLAY: inline"
    href="http://www.bunea.eu/" rel="noopener noreferrer"
    target=_blank>http://www.bunea.eu</A> / <A href="tel:+40745495495"
    rel="noopener noreferrer" target=_blank>+40745495495</A><BR></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV> </DIV>
    <DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE
    style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0.4em; MARGIN: 
0px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.4em"
    type="cite">
      <DIV>On 14 May 2018, at 11:20, Janarthanan Sundaram <<A
      href="mailto:j.sundaram@123telcom.nl">j.sundaram@123telcom.nl</A>>
      wrote:</DIV>
      <DIV> </DIV>
      <DIV>
      <DIV
      style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; FONT-FAMILY: helvetica; WHITE-SPACE: normal; 
WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-STYLE: 
normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 
0px; page: wordsection1; font-variant-caps: normal">
      <DIV
      style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0cm 
0cm 0pt"><SPAN
      style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: 
#1f497d">I
      think we should prioritize on on point two: what to do with unused
      blocks.<BR></SPAN></DIV>
      <DIV
      style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0cm 
0cm 0pt"><SPAN
      style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR: 
#1f497d"><BR></SPAN> </DIV>
      <DIV>
      <DIV
      style="BORDER-TOP: #e1e1e1 1pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none; 
PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none; PADDING-LEFT: 
0cm; BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm">
      <DIV
      style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0cm 
0cm 0pt"><STRONG><SPAN
      style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, 
sans-serif">Van:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
      style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, 
sans-serif"><SPAN> </SPAN>members-discuss
      <<A
      href="mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net">members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net</A>><SPAN> </SPAN><STRONG>Namens<SPAN> </SPAN></STRONG>Bruno
      Carvalho<BR><STRONG>Verzonden:</STRONG><SPAN> </SPAN>maandag 14 mei
      2018 10:11<BR><STRONG>Aan:</STRONG><SPAN> </SPAN><A
      href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net">members-discuss@ripe.net</A><BR><STRONG>Onderwerp:</STRONG><SPAN> </SPAN>Re:
      [members-discuss] VL: IP transfer
(in)security<BR></SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV>
      <DIV
      style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0cm 
0cm 0pt"> </DIV><SPAN
      style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, sans-serif">This discussion
      is quite interesting. But i think it should be discussed between all RiRs.
      Not only for RIPE.<BR>When we look at big companies, like Microsoft, and
      do a simple scan of their assigned IP ranges... we found some /14 and
      several /16 unassigned/unused ranges.</SPAN><BR><BR><BR><SPAN
      style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, sans-serif">Personnally, i
      think we should focus on 2 main things:</SPAN><BR><BR><BR><SPAN
      style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, sans-serif">- Improve IPv6
      implementation all over the territory (i know this is painfull for many
      LIRs because it implies additional work and purchase of new equipments.
      But let's face it. We are in 2018. If an equipment doesn't support IPv6,
      it's very obsolete and not performant).</SPAN><BR><BR><BR><SPAN
      style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, sans-serif">- Check with the
      other RiRs what would be the best to do with those big unused ranges that
      are owned by companies that don't use them.</SPAN><BR><BR><BR><SPAN
      style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, 
sans-serif">Regards</SPAN><BR><BR><BR>
      <DIV>
      <DIV
      style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0cm 
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          width=141>Bruno Carvalho (CEO <A href="http://xrv.pt"
            rel="noopener noreferrer" target=_blank>xrv.pt</A>) | +351 300 404
            316<BR><SPAN
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      style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, 
sans-serif"></SPAN><BR> <BR><BR><SPAN
      style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, sans-serif">On 2018-05-14
      09:51, Hans Govenius wrote:</SPAN><BR><BR><BR>
      <BLOCKQUOTE
      style="BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none; BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 
0cm; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none; PADDING-LEFT: 5pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 
0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0cm">
        <DIV>
        <DIV
        style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 
0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
        style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">Hello<BR><BR>Not
        needed IP = The addressese company is ready to sell for a small
        profit<SPAN> </SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
        style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Segoe UI Symbol', 
sans-serif">😊</SPAN><SPAN
        style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><SPAN> </SPAN>?
        This is probably good indication that its not used anymore. One option
        is to automatically block all and any IP transaction which does not
        involve transaction of the whole company/business. It is a question that
        can IP be a commodity. Now its a commodity that is getting more rare by
        the year. Maybe IP should be considered an jointly owned part of
        infrastructure which is deployed by need basis. (Socialistic
        way)<BR><BR>Other option is to start to take money per IP. This would
        instantly mean that everyone would look up to own ip spaces. Let say it
        would cost 1 euro / year for a IP it would only be approx 1000 euros for
        the smallest allocation. Someone with 10 million IP addressese are
        likely to happily pay for it fi they are in use, but if they are not i
        would think they would be handed back. (Capitalistic way)<BR><BR>One
        option is also to go with the current system because internet is working
        so its not horribly wrong at the moment
        either.<SPAN> </SPAN><BR><BR>One interesting this is tho that old
        LIR:s are likely to wanting to keep these things unchanged. New LIR:s
        are more likely to want changes as this is heavily favoring old LIR:s.
        And every year a proportionally larger part will be the ones with few
        IP:s and same vote than the one with alot of IP:s and also only 1
        vote.<SPAN> </SPAN><BR><BR>Br.
        Hans<SPAN> </SPAN><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>-----Alkuperäinen
        viesti-----<BR>Lähettäjä: members-discuss <<A
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        href="mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net">members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net</A>>
        Puolesta REG ID: pl.skonet<BR>Lähetetty: maanantai 14. toukokuuta 2018
        10.34<BR>Vastaanottaja:<SPAN> </SPAN><A
        style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline; COLOR: purple"
        href="mailto:pdonner@znak.fi">pdonner@znak.fi</A>;<SPAN> </SPAN><A
        style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline; COLOR: purple"
        href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net">members-discuss@ripe.net</A><BR>Aihe:
        Re: [members-discuss] VL: IP transfer (in)security<BR><BR>W dniu
        14.05.2018 o 09:25, Philip Donner
        pisze:<SPAN> </SPAN><BR></SPAN></DIV>
        <BLOCKQUOTE
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MARGIN-RIGHT: 0cm"><SPAN
          style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><BR>I would like
          to amplify Dave's good proposal, by suggesting that unused addresses
          should be handed back to RIPE, so that they can be added to a pool of
          addresses reserved for LIRs who needs them for non-profit promotion of
          IP networks.</SPAN><BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
        <DIV
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0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
        style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><BR>Ok, but there is
        never ending story to resolve: how to define 'unused addresses'. Because
        not announced in BGP definitely != not used.<BR><BR>-- <BR><BR>Tomasz
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