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<DIV>Bruno has it’s point.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Legacy parts of the space should be reclaimed, but only ICANN has the power
to do so.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I don’t like to call it a thief, I’d rather say as all IP space is rented
(owning a number isn’t bright), all that rented space, wherever it is legacy or
current should be re-audited to justify the reason of use.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000"><BR>--<BR>Alex
Lobachov<BR>Telenet, sia<BR>Network Systems Engineer<BR>LinkedIn:
https://lv.linkedin.com/in/allxll<BR>E-mail: alxl@telenet.lv<BR>Skype:
alxl__<BR>Direct office: +371 67886224<BR>Office: +371 67711111<BR><BR></DIV>
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<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=bruno.carvalho@xrv.pt
href="mailto:bruno.carvalho@xrv.pt">Bruno Carvalho</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Monday, May 14, 2018 2:04 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=members-discuss@ripe.net
href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net">members-discuss@ripe.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [members-discuss] VL: IP transfer
(in)security</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
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style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri";
FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<P>William,</P>
<P>Legacy or not, at one point a regulation was introduced. And everyone should
be regulated (pre-RIR or not).</P>
<P>Is the same has if you own a car from back the traffic laws (1800 years?). If
you drive it now, you have to comply with all the laws that regulate the
sector.<BR>Why the legacy address space owners shouldn't have to comply with the
actual regulations?</P>
<P>If we look deep on the spaces between 0.0.0.0 and 255.255.255.255 (that are
not local or bogons), i bet that most than 50% are legacy and not used.</P>
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<P> </P>
<P>On 2018-05-14 12:46, William wrote:</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 16px; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma; DIRECTION: ltr">
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 16px; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma"> </DIV>These are
legacy. They are not RIR business.
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>No RIR can reclaim them (and reclaim is plainly wrong, they never owned
them, this is pre-RIR space), they are private property.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Taking them is theft and nothing else, no matter how you phrase it.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma">--</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma">William Weber</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma">Consulting, Security & Management -
Tel-Aviv, Israel / Rijeka, Croatia</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma"><A style="CURSOR: pointer"
href="https://ip6.im/" rel="noopener noreferrer"
target=_blank>https://ip6.im</A> - No RIPE LIR? Still read this email for some
reason? Grab a /40 *free* IPv6 space for BGP usage. Or just get it anyway,
can't hurt to have.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><BR><BR>
<DIV>On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 12:27, Bunea TELECOM <suport@bunea.eu>
wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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type="cite">
<DIV>
<DIV
style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break:
after-white-space">I
agree,
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There are tens of /8's available, some of them even unannounced. For
example there are lots of entities which if they would gave up (even
partially) of their unused blocks, it would push the IPv4 complete exaustion
to 2020+. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thanks,</DIV>
<DIV>Petru<BR>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; FONT-FAMILY: helvetica; FONT-VARIANT: normal;
WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FONT-WEIGHT:
normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; TEXT-INDENT:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px">—</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; FONT-FAMILY: helvetica; FONT-VARIANT: normal;
WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FONT-WEIGHT:
normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; TEXT-INDENT:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px">
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<DIV
style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break:
after-white-space">
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after-white-space">
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after-white-space">
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<DIV>
<DIV
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after-white-space">
<DIV>
<DIV
style="LINE-HEIGHT:
normal"> </DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; FONT-FAMILY: helvetica; FONT-VARIANT: normal;
WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FONT-WEIGHT:
normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; TEXT-INDENT:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; FONT-FAMILY: helvetica; FONT-VARIANT: normal;
WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FONT-WEIGHT:
normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; TEXT-INDENT:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; FONT-FAMILY: helvetica; FONT-VARIANT: normal;
WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FONT-WEIGHT:
normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; TEXT-INDENT:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><SPAN><IMG
src="cid:4F78415B98D74133B4D66DB63D704495@asmodeus"></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN>
<DIV
style="WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR:
#000000; FONT: 12px helvetica; LETTER-SPACING: normal; TEXT-INDENT:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><SPAN
style="DISPLAY: inline"><BR><BR><BR><BR><STRONG>Petru
Bunea</STRONG></SPAN> <SPAN style="DISPLAY: inline">/</SPAN> <SPAN
style="DISPLAY: inline">CEO</SPAN> <SPAN
style="DISPLAY: inline"><BR></SPAN><A
style="TEXT-DECORATION: none; COLOR: #477ccc; DISPLAY: inline"
href="mailto:suport@bunea.eu">suport@bunea.eu</A><SPAN
style="DISPLAY: inline"> / </SPAN><SPAN style="DISPLAY: inline"><A
href="tel:+40752481282" rel="noopener noreferrer"
target=_blank>+40752481282</A></SPAN></DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; FONT-FAMILY: helvetica; FONT-VARIANT: normal;
WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FONT-WEIGHT:
normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; TEXT-INDENT:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; COLOR: #212121; DISPLAY: inline">Bunea
TELECOM</SPAN> / DATACENTER / APP DEVELOPMENT<SPAN
style="DISPLAY: inline"><BR></SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: #212121"></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: #212121"></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: #212121"></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: #212121"></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN><A
style="TEXT-DECORATION: none; COLOR: #477ccc; DISPLAY: inline"
href="http://www.bunea.eu/" rel="noopener noreferrer"
target=_blank>http://www.bunea.eu</A> / <A href="tel:+40745495495"
rel="noopener noreferrer" target=_blank>+40745495495</A><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0.4em; MARGIN:
0px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.4em"
type="cite">
<DIV>On 14 May 2018, at 11:20, Janarthanan Sundaram <<A
href="mailto:j.sundaram@123telcom.nl">j.sundaram@123telcom.nl</A>>
wrote:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; FONT-FAMILY: helvetica; WHITE-SPACE: normal;
WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-STYLE:
normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; page: wordsection1; font-variant-caps: normal">
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0cm
0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR:
#1f497d">I
think we should prioritize on on point two: what to do with unused
blocks.<BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0cm
0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri, sans-serif; COLOR:
#1f497d"><BR></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-TOP: #e1e1e1 1pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none;
PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none; PADDING-LEFT:
0cm; BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm">
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0cm
0cm 0pt"><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,
sans-serif">Van:</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,
sans-serif"><SPAN> </SPAN>members-discuss
<<A
href="mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net">members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net</A>><SPAN> </SPAN><STRONG>Namens<SPAN> </SPAN></STRONG>Bruno
Carvalho<BR><STRONG>Verzonden:</STRONG><SPAN> </SPAN>maandag 14 mei
2018 10:11<BR><STRONG>Aan:</STRONG><SPAN> </SPAN><A
href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net">members-discuss@ripe.net</A><BR><STRONG>Onderwerp:</STRONG><SPAN> </SPAN>Re:
[members-discuss] VL: IP transfer
(in)security<BR></SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN: 0cm
0cm 0pt"> </DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, sans-serif">This discussion
is quite interesting. But i think it should be discussed between all RiRs.
Not only for RIPE.<BR>When we look at big companies, like Microsoft, and
do a simple scan of their assigned IP ranges... we found some /14 and
several /16 unassigned/unused ranges.</SPAN><BR><BR><BR><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, sans-serif">Personnally, i
think we should focus on 2 main things:</SPAN><BR><BR><BR><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, sans-serif">- Improve IPv6
implementation all over the territory (i know this is painfull for many
LIRs because it implies additional work and purchase of new equipments.
But let's face it. We are in 2018. If an equipment doesn't support IPv6,
it's very obsolete and not performant).</SPAN><BR><BR><BR><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, sans-serif">- Check with the
other RiRs what would be the best to do with those big unused ranges that
are owned by companies that don't use them.</SPAN><BR><BR><BR><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: verdana,
sans-serif">Regards</SPAN><BR><BR><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV
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sans-serif"></SPAN><BR> <BR><BR><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, sans-serif">On 2018-05-14
09:51, Hans Govenius wrote:</SPAN><BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none; BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none; PADDING-BOTTOM:
0cm; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none; PADDING-LEFT: 5pt; MARGIN-LEFT:
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<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN:
0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">Hello<BR><BR>Not
needed IP = The addressese company is ready to sell for a small
profit<SPAN> </SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Segoe UI Symbol',
sans-serif">😊</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><SPAN> </SPAN>?
This is probably good indication that its not used anymore. One option
is to automatically block all and any IP transaction which does not
involve transaction of the whole company/business. It is a question that
can IP be a commodity. Now its a commodity that is getting more rare by
the year. Maybe IP should be considered an jointly owned part of
infrastructure which is deployed by need basis. (Socialistic
way)<BR><BR>Other option is to start to take money per IP. This would
instantly mean that everyone would look up to own ip spaces. Let say it
would cost 1 euro / year for a IP it would only be approx 1000 euros for
the smallest allocation. Someone with 10 million IP addressese are
likely to happily pay for it fi they are in use, but if they are not i
would think they would be handed back. (Capitalistic way)<BR><BR>One
option is also to go with the current system because internet is working
so its not horribly wrong at the moment
either.<SPAN> </SPAN><BR><BR>One interesting this is tho that old
LIR:s are likely to wanting to keep these things unchanged. New LIR:s
are more likely to want changes as this is heavily favoring old LIR:s.
And every year a proportionally larger part will be the ones with few
IP:s and same vote than the one with alot of IP:s and also only 1
vote.<SPAN> </SPAN><BR><BR>Br.
Hans<SPAN> </SPAN><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>-----Alkuperäinen
viesti-----<BR>Lähettäjä: members-discuss <<A
style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline; COLOR: purple"
href="mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net">members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net</A>>
Puolesta REG ID: pl.skonet<BR>Lähetetty: maanantai 14. toukokuuta 2018
10.34<BR>Vastaanottaja:<SPAN> </SPAN><A
style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline; COLOR: purple"
href="mailto:pdonner@znak.fi">pdonner@znak.fi</A>;<SPAN> </SPAN><A
style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline; COLOR: purple"
href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net">members-discuss@ripe.net</A><BR>Aihe:
Re: [members-discuss] VL: IP transfer (in)security<BR><BR>W dniu
14.05.2018 o 09:25, Philip Donner
pisze:<SPAN> </SPAN><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none; BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none;
PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none; PADDING-LEFT:
5pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm;
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0cm"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><BR>I would like
to amplify Dave's good proposal, by suggesting that unused addresses
should be handed back to RIPE, so that they can be added to a pool of
addresses reserved for LIRs who needs them for non-profit promotion of
IP networks.</SPAN><BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; MARGIN:
0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><BR>Ok, but there is
never ending story to resolve: how to define 'unused addresses'. Because
not announced in BGP definitely != not used.<BR><BR>-- <BR><BR>Tomasz
Śląski<BR>pl.skonet<BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>members-discuss
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