<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" /></head><body><div data-crea="font-wrapper" style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 16px; direction: ltr"><div style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 16px"></div>You are a thief in this case. There is no way around it.<div><br></div><div>We obtained them by entirely other terms from entirely different organisations way before RIRs existence (or by transfer later which transfer the conditions unless converted to PA).</div><div><br></div><div>If you want them, pay the legacy owners a fair amount negotiated between them and whoever puts up the money (so no price gouging by ICANN/IANA/RIRs) - everything else is theft, coercion or use of force. And this will be fought in a US court, where you have absolutely zero chance to win this case in a jury trial. It is, again, simply theft.</div><div><br><div><div data-crea="font-wrapper" style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 16px; direction: ltr"><div data-crea="font-wrapper" style="direction: ltr;">--</div><div data-crea="font-wrapper" style="direction: ltr;">William Weber</div><div data-crea="font-wrapper" style="direction: ltr;">Consulting, Security & Management - Tel-Aviv, Israel / Rijeka, Croatia</div><div data-crea="font-wrapper" style="direction: ltr;"> </div><div data-crea="font-wrapper" style="direction: ltr;">https://ip6.im - No RIPE LIR? Still read this email for some reason? Grab a /40 *free* IPv6 space for BGP usage. Or just get it anyway, can't hurt to have.</div><div><br></div></div></div><br><br><div data-anchor="reply-title">On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 13:10, Alex Lobachov <alxl@telenet.lv> wrote:</div><blockquote><div><div style="font-size: 10pt;font-family: Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif" dir="ltr"> <div dir="ltr"> <div style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Calibri';color: #000000"> <div>Bruno has it’s point.</div> <div> </div> <div>Legacy parts of the space should be reclaimed, but only ICANN has the power to do so.</div> <div> </div> <div>I don’t like to call it a thief, I’d rather say as all IP space is rented (owning a number isn’t bright), all that rented space, wherever it is legacy or current should be re-audited to justify the reason of use.</div> <div> </div> <div style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Calibri';color: #000000"><br>--<br>Alex Lobachov<br>Telenet, sia<br>Network Systems Engineer<br>LinkedIn: <a href="https://lv.linkedin.com/in/allxll" target="_blank" tabindex="-1" rel="external">https://lv.linkedin.com/in/allxll</a><br>E-mail: <a href="mailto:alxl@telenet.lv" target="_blank" tabindex="-1" rel="external">alxl@telenet.lv</a><br>Skype: alxl__<br>Direct office: +371 67886224<br>Office: +371 67711111<br><br></div> <div style='font-size: small;text-decoration: none;font-family: "Calibri";font-weight: normal;color: #000000;font-style: normal;display: inline'> <div style="font: 10pt tahoma"> <div> </div> <div style="background: #f5f5f5"> <div style="font-color: black"><b>From:</b> <a title="bruno.carvalho@xrv.pt" href="mailto:bruno.carvalho@xrv.pt" target="_blank" tabindex="-1" rel="external">Bruno Carvalho</a> </div> <div><b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 14, 2018 2:04 PM</div> <div><b>To:</b> <a title="members-discuss@ripe.net" href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" target="_blank" tabindex="-1" rel="external">members-discuss@ripe.net</a> </div> <div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [members-discuss] VL: IP transfer (in)security</div></div></div> <div> </div></div> <div style='font-size: small;text-decoration: none;font-family: "Calibri";font-weight: normal;color: #000000;font-style: normal;display: inline'> William,<br> Legacy or not, at one point a regulation was introduced. And everyone should be regulated (pre-RIR or not).<br> Is the same has if you own a car from back the traffic laws (1800 years?). If you drive it now, you have to comply with all the laws that regulate the sector.<br>Why the legacy address space owners shouldn't have to comply with the actual regulations?<br> If we look deep on the spaces between 0.0.0.0 and 255.255.255.255 (that are not local or bogons), i bet that most than 50% are legacy and not used.<br><div>---<br><table style="color: #000000"><tbody><tr><td style="width: 148px"><img alt="XRV" width="148" height="43" src="https://www.xrv.pt/templates/xrv/html/img/xrv.png"></td> <td style="width: 380px"> Bruno Carvalho (CEO xrv.pt) | +351 300 404 316<br><span style="font-family: webdings;color: #009900">P</span> <span style="font-family: helvetica;color: #009900">Please consider the environment before printing this email</span><br></td> <td style="width: 64px;text-align: center"><a title="XRV" href="https://www.xrv.pt" target="_blank" tabindex="-1" rel="external"><img alt="Visit our website" width="53" height="32" src="https://www.xrv.pt/templates/xrv/html/img/www.png"></a><br><a title="Visit us on Facebook" href="https://www.facebook.com/xervers/" target="_blank" tabindex="-1" rel="external"><img alt="Facebook" width="32" height="32" src="https://www.xrv.pt/templates/xrv/html/img/facebook.png"></a><a title="Visit us on Twitter" href="https://twitter.com/xervers" target="_blank" tabindex="-1" rel="external"><img alt="Twitter" width="32" height="32" src="https://www.xrv.pt/templates/xrv/html/img/twitter.png"></a></td></tr></tbody></table></div> <br> On 2018-05-14 12:46, William wrote:<br><blockquote style="padding-bottom: 0px;padding-top: 0px;padding-left: 0.4em;margin: 0px;border-left: #1010ff 2px solid;padding-right: 0.4em" type="cite"> <div style="font-size: 16px;font-family: tahoma;direction: ltr"> <div style="font-size: 16px;font-family: tahoma"> </div>These are legacy. They are not RIR business. <div> </div> <div>No RIR can reclaim them (and reclaim is plainly wrong, they never owned them, this is pre-RIR space), they are private property.</div> <div> </div> <div>Taking them is theft and nothing else, no matter how you phrase it.</div> <div> </div> <div> <div style="font-family: tahoma">--</div> <div style="font-family: tahoma">William Weber</div> <div style="font-family: tahoma">Consulting, Security & Management - Tel-Aviv, Israel / Rijeka, Croatia</div> <div style="font-family: tahoma"> </div> <div style="font-family: tahoma"><a style="" href="https://ip6.im/" rel="external" target="_blank" tabindex="-1">https://ip6.im</a> - No RIPE LIR? Still read this email for some reason? Grab a /40 *free* IPv6 space for BGP usage. Or just get it anyway, can't hurt to have.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div><br><br><div>On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 12:27, Bunea TELECOM <<a href="mailto:suport@bunea.eu" target="_blank" tabindex="-1" rel="external">suport@bunea.eu</a>> wrote:</div> <blockquote style="padding-bottom: 0px;padding-top: 0px;padding-left: 0.4em;margin: 0px;border-left: #1010ff 2px solid;padding-right: 0.4em" type="cite"> <div> <div style="word-wrap: break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;-webkit-line-break: after-white-space">I agree, <div> </div> <div>There are tens of /8's available, some of them even unannounced. For example there are lots of entities which if they would gave up (even partially) of their unused blocks, it would push the IPv4 complete exaustion to 2020+. </div> <div> </div> <div>Thanks,</div> <div>Petru<br><div> <div style="font-size: 12px;font-family: helvetica;font-variant: normal;white-space: normal;word-spacing: 0px;text-transform: none;font-weight: normal;color: #000000;font-style: normal;letter-spacing: normal;text-indent: 0px;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px">—</div> <div style="font-size: 12px;font-family: helvetica;font-variant: normal;white-space: normal;word-spacing: 0px;text-transform: none;font-weight: normal;color: #000000;font-style: normal;letter-spacing: normal;text-indent: 0px;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"> <div style="line-height: normal"> <div> <div style="word-wrap: break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;-webkit-line-break: after-white-space"> <div> <div> <div style="word-wrap: break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;-webkit-line-break: after-white-space"> <div> <div style="line-height: normal"> <div> <div style="word-wrap: break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;-webkit-line-break: after-white-space"> <div> <div> <div style="word-wrap: break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;-webkit-line-break: after-white-space"> <div> <div style="line-height: normal"> </div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br style="font-size: 12px;font-family: helvetica;font-variant: normal;white-space: normal;word-spacing: 0px;text-transform: none;font-weight: normal;color: #000000;font-style: normal;letter-spacing: normal;text-indent: 0px;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><span style="font-size: 12px;font-family: helvetica;font-variant: normal;white-space: normal;word-spacing: 0px;text-transform: none;font-weight: normal;color: #000000;font-style: normal;letter-spacing: normal;text-indent: 0px;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><span style="font-size: 12px;font-family: helvetica;font-variant: normal;white-space: normal;word-spacing: 0px;text-transform: none;font-weight: normal;color: #000000;font-style: normal;letter-spacing: normal;text-indent: 0px;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><span><img src="cid:4F78415B98D74133B4D66DB63D704495@asmodeus"></span></span></span> <div style="white-space: normal;word-spacing: 0px;text-transform: none;color: #000000;font: 12px helvetica;letter-spacing: normal;text-indent: 0px;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><span style="display: inline"><br><br><br><br><strong>Petru Bunea</strong></span> <span style="display: inline">/</span> <span style="display: inline">CEO</span> <span style="display: inline"><br></span><a style="text-decoration: none;color: #477ccc;display: inline" href="mailto:suport@bunea.eu" target="_blank" tabindex="-1" rel="external">suport@bunea.eu</a><span style="display: inline"> / </span><span style="display: inline"><a href="tel:+40752481282" rel="external" target="_blank" tabindex="-1">+40752481282</a></span></div><span style="font-size: 12px;font-family: helvetica;font-variant: normal;white-space: normal;word-spacing: 0px;text-transform: none;font-weight: normal;color: #000000;font-style: normal;letter-spacing: normal;text-indent: 0px;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><span style="font-weight: bold;color: #212121;display: inline">Bunea TELECOM</span> / DATACENTER / APP DEVELOPMENT<span style="display: inline"><br></span><span style="color: #212121"></span><span style="color: #212121"></span><span></span><span style="color: #212121"></span><span></span><span style="color: #212121"></span><span></span><a style="text-decoration: none;color: #477ccc;display: inline" href="http://www.bunea.eu/" rel="external" target="_blank" tabindex="-1">http://www.bunea.eu</a> / <a href="tel:+40745495495" rel="external" target="_blank" tabindex="-1">+40745495495</a><br></span></div> <div> </div> <div> <blockquote style="padding-bottom: 0px;padding-top: 0px;padding-left: 0.4em;margin: 0px;border-left: #1010ff 2px solid;padding-right: 0.4em" type="cite"> <div>On 14 May 2018, at 11:20, Janarthanan Sundaram <<a href="mailto:j.sundaram@123telcom.nl" target="_blank" tabindex="-1" rel="external">j.sundaram@123telcom.nl</a>> wrote:</div> <div> </div> <div> <div style="font-size: 12px;font-family: helvetica;white-space: normal;word-spacing: 0px;text-transform: none;font-weight: normal;font-style: normal;letter-spacing: normal;text-indent: 0px;-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;page: wordsection1;font-variant-caps: normal"> <div style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: 11pt;font-family: calibri, sans-serif;color: #1f497d">I think we should prioritize on on point two: what to do with unused blocks.<br></span></div> <div style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: 11pt;font-family: calibri, sans-serif;color: #1f497d"><br></span> </div> <div> <div style="border-top: #e1e1e1 1pt solid;border-bottom-style: none;padding-bottom: 0cm;padding-top: 3pt;border-right-style: none;padding-left: 0cm;border-left-style: none;padding-right: 0cm"> <div style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><strong><span style="font-size: 11pt;font-family: calibri, sans-serif">Van:</span></strong><span style="font-size: 11pt;font-family: calibri, sans-serif"><span> </span>members-discuss <<a href="mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net" target="_blank" tabindex="-1" rel="external">members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net</a>><span> </span><strong>Namens<span> </span></strong>Bruno Carvalho<br><strong>Verzonden:</strong><span> </span>maandag 14 mei 2018 10:11<br><strong>Aan:</strong><span> </span><a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" target="_blank" tabindex="-1" rel="external">members-discuss@ripe.net</a><br><strong>Onderwerp:</strong><span> </span>Re: [members-discuss] VL: IP transfer (in)security<br></span></div></div></div> <div style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"> </div><span style="font-size: 10pt;font-family: verdana, sans-serif">This discussion is quite interesting. But i think it should be discussed between all RiRs. Not only for RIPE.<br>When we look at big companies, like Microsoft, and do a simple scan of their assigned IP ranges... we found some /14 and several /16 unassigned/unused ranges.</span><br><br><br><span style="font-size: 10pt;font-family: verdana, sans-serif">Personnally, i think we should focus on 2 main things:</span><br><br><br><span style="font-size: 10pt;font-family: verdana, sans-serif">- Improve IPv6 implementation all over the territory (i know this is painfull for many LIRs because it implies additional work and purchase of new equipments. But let's face it. We are in 2018. If an equipment doesn't support IPv6, it's very obsolete and not performant).</span><br><br><br><span style="font-size: 10pt;font-family: verdana, sans-serif">- Check with the other RiRs what would be the best to do with those big unused ranges that are owned by companies that don't use them.</span><br><br><br><span style="font-size: 10pt;font-family: verdana, sans-serif">Regards</span><br><br><br><div> <div style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: 10pt;font-family: verdana, sans-serif">---<br></span></div> <table style="color: #000000" cellspacing="4" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tbody><tr><td style="width: 111pt;padding-bottom: 0.75pt;padding-top: 0.75pt;padding-left: 0.75pt;padding-right: 0.75pt" width="153"> <div style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><img style="height: 0.447in;width: 1.541in" alt="XRV" width="148" height="43" src="cid:E913C58725DB4093B2A52ABB36C87B28@asmodeus"></div></td> <td style="width: 285pt;padding-bottom: 0.75pt;padding-top: 0.75pt;padding-left: 0.75pt;padding-right: 0.75pt" width="141">Bruno Carvalho (CEO <a href="http://xrv.pt" rel="external" target="_blank" tabindex="-1">xrv.pt</a>) | +351 300 404 316<br><span style="font-family: webdings;color: #009900">P</span> <span style="font-family: helvetica, sans-serif;color: #009900">Please consider the environment before printing this email</span><br><br><br></td> <td style="width: 48pt;padding-bottom: 0.75pt;padding-top: 0.75pt;padding-left: 0.75pt;padding-right: 0.75pt" width="60"> <div style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;text-align: center;margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><a title="XRV" style="text-decoration: underline;color: purple" href="https://www.xrv.pt/" rel="external" target="_blank" tabindex="-1"><span style="text-decoration: none"><img style="height: 0.333in;width: 0.552in" border="0" alt="Visit our website" width="53" height="32" src="cid:E913C58725DB4093B2A52ABB36C87B28@asmodeus"></span></a><br><a title="Visit us on Facebook" style="text-decoration: underline;color: purple" href="https://www.facebook.com/xervers/" rel="external" target="_blank" tabindex="-1"><span style="text-decoration: none"><img style="height: 0.333in;width: 0.333in" border="0" alt="Facebook" width="32" height="32" src="cid:E913C58725DB4093B2A52ABB36C87B28@asmodeus"></span></a><a title="Visit us on Twitter" style="text-decoration: underline;color: purple" href="https://twitter.com/xervers" rel="external" target="_blank" tabindex="-1"><span style="text-decoration: none"><img style="height: 0.333in;width: 0.333in" border="0" alt="Twitter" width="32" height="32" src="cid:E913C58725DB4093B2A52ABB36C87B28@asmodeus"></span></a></div></td></tr></tbody></table></div><span style="font-size: 10pt;font-family: verdana, sans-serif"></span><br> <br><br><span style="font-size: 10pt;font-family: verdana, sans-serif">On 2018-05-14 09:51, Hans Govenius wrote:</span><br><br><br><blockquote style="border-top-style: none;border-bottom-style: none;padding-bottom: 0cm;padding-top: 0cm;border-right-style: none;padding-left: 5pt;margin-left: 0cm;border-left: #1010ff 1.5pt solid;padding-right: 0cm;margin-right: 0cm"> <div> <div style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: 10pt;font-family: 'Courier New'">Hello<br><br>Not needed IP = The addressese company is ready to sell for a small profit<span> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt;font-family: 'Segoe UI Symbol', sans-serif">😊</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;font-family: 'Courier New'"><span> </span>? This is probably good indication that its not used anymore. One option is to automatically block all and any IP transaction which does not involve transaction of the whole company/business. It is a question that can IP be a commodity. Now its a commodity that is getting more rare by the year. Maybe IP should be considered an jointly owned part of infrastructure which is deployed by need basis. (Socialistic way)<br><br>Other option is to start to take money per IP. This would instantly mean that everyone would look up to own ip spaces. Let say it would cost 1 euro / year for a IP it would only be approx 1000 euros for the smallest allocation. Someone with 10 million IP addressese are likely to happily pay for it fi they are in use, but if they are not i would think they would be handed back. (Capitalistic way)<br><br>One option is also to go with the current system because internet is working so its not horribly wrong at the moment either.<span> </span><br><br>One interesting this is tho that old LIR:s are likely to wanting to keep these things unchanged. New LIR:s are more likely to want changes as this is heavily favoring old LIR:s. And every year a proportionally larger part will be the ones with few IP:s and same vote than the one with alot of IP:s and also only 1 vote.<span> </span><br><br>Br. Hans<span> </span><br><br><br><br><br>-----Alkuperäinen viesti-----<br>Lähettäjä: members-discuss <<a style="text-decoration: underline;color: purple" href="mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net" target="_blank" tabindex="-1" rel="external">members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net</a>> Puolesta REG ID: pl.skonet<br>Lähetetty: maanantai 14. toukokuuta 2018 10.34<br>Vastaanottaja:<span> </span><a style="text-decoration: underline;color: purple" href="mailto:pdonner@znak.fi" target="_blank" tabindex="-1" rel="external">pdonner@znak.fi</a>;<span> </span><a style="text-decoration: underline;color: purple" href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" target="_blank" tabindex="-1" rel="external">members-discuss@ripe.net</a><br>Aihe: Re: [members-discuss] VL: IP transfer (in)security<br><br>W dniu 14.05.2018 o 09:25, Philip Donner pisze:<span> </span><br></span></div> <blockquote style="border-top-style: none;border-bottom-style: none;padding-bottom: 0cm;padding-top: 0cm;border-right-style: none;padding-left: 5pt;margin-left: 0cm;border-left: #1010ff 1.5pt solid;padding-right: 0cm;margin-right: 0cm"><span style="font-size: 10pt;font-family: 'Courier New'"><br>I would like to amplify Dave's good proposal, by suggesting that unused addresses should be handed back to RIPE, so that they can be added to a pool of addresses reserved for LIRs who needs them for non-profit promotion of IP networks.</span><br><br><br></blockquote> <div style="font-size: 12pt;font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="font-size: 10pt;font-family: 'Courier New'"><br>Ok, but there is never ending story to resolve: how to define 'unused addresses'. Because not announced in BGP definitely != not used.<br><br>-- <br><br>Tomasz Śląski<br>pl.skonet<br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>members-discuss mailing list<br><a style="text-decoration: underline;color: purple" href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" target="_blank" tabindex="-1" rel="external">members-discuss@ripe.net</a><br><a style="text-decoration: underline;color: purple" href="https://mailman.ripe.net/" rel="external" target="_blank" tabindex="-1">https://mailman.ripe.net/</a><br>Unsubscribe:<span> </span><a style="text-decoration: underline;color: purple" href="https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/hans.govenius%40devnet.fi" rel="external" target="_blank" tabindex="-1">https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/hans.govenius%40devnet.fi</a><br>_______________________________________________<br>members-discuss mailing list<br><a style="text-decoration: underline;color: purple" href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" 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