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<body><div>Hi,</div><div><br></div><div>No, not really.</div><div>The legal/financial perspective has been that RIPE is a non-for-profit organisation.</div><div>This proposal doesn't imply that the aggregated membership fees should exceed the running costs for the oranisation. Only how they are distributed among the members.</div><div><br></div><div>Much of the discussion has been that it's unfair that new LIRs with only a /22 ipv4 have to pay as much as all others. </div><div>A new LIR is in a good position to dualstack every single device from the start, meaning that if they can end up with a lower fee than the older LIRs, who have millions of devices to dualstack before they qualify for the lower fee.</div><div><br></div><div>The real difficulty would be how to measure the actual distribution.</div><div><br></div><div>It likely that this model doesn't cause a much larger cost for the large players than today, but it also means that a new provider that choose to offer ipv6-only or dualstacked services get away at a much lower cost.</div><div><br></div><div>It makes more sense to promote the adoption of todays technology, rather than clinging on to things of the past (IPv4) that can't be changed enough to make a difference anyhow.</div><div><br></div><div>Example of weights</div><div>singelstacked ipv6, factor 1</div><div>dualstacked, factor 10</div><div>singlestacked ipv4, factor 1000</div><div><br></div><div>Over time the amount of singlestacked ipv4 LIRs will go away, which means that we slowly move back towards the same equal fee structure we have today.</div><div><br></div><div>/Robin</div><div><br></div><div class="-x-evo-paragraph -x-evo-top-signature-spacer"><br></div><div>On Fri, 2016-09-23 at 07:27 -0500, Daniel Pearson wrote:</div><blockquote type="cite">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Robin,<br>
<br>
Not to be rude, but we've already explained why this is not
possible for RIPE to do several times in this thread both from a
financial and legal perspective. <br>
<br>
Daniel~<br>
<br>
On 09/23/2016 05:30 AM, Robin Johansson wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:1474626613.26061.32.camel@reth.se" type="cite">
<div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: monospace; width:
71ch; word-wrap: break-word; word-break: break-word;">Hi,</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: monospace; width:
71ch; word-wrap: break-word; word-break: break-word;"><br>
</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: monospace; width:
71ch; word-wrap: break-word; word-break: break-word;">If we
are to base membership fees on resources then the only way
that makes sense today is to make it really expensive if
you're not giving your subscribers ipv6 addresses.</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: monospace; width:
71ch; word-wrap: break-word; word-break: break-word;"><br>
</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: monospace; width:
71ch; word-wrap: break-word; word-break: break-word;">Could
even have it with multiple tiers</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: monospace; width:
71ch; word-wrap: break-word; word-break: break-word;">majority
of subs singlestacked ipv4: really expensive</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: monospace; width:
71ch; word-wrap: break-word; word-break: break-word;">majority
dualstacked: fairly cheap</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: monospace; width:
71ch; word-wrap: break-word; word-break: break-word;">majority
of subs singlestacked ipv6: really cheap</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: monospace; width:
71ch; word-wrap: break-word; word-break: break-word;"><br>
</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: monospace; width:
71ch; word-wrap: break-word; word-break: break-word;">This
makes it very easy for all the new "small" LIRs to reach the
fairly cheap fee, as they don't have a lot of subscribers to
dualstack. And it gives incentive for every LIR to at least
dualstack, maybe move away from ipv4 all together. Also to
ensure that their subscriber base have modern equipment
capable of handling ipv6.</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: monospace; width:
71ch; word-wrap: break-word; word-break: break-word;"><br>
</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: monospace; width:
71ch; word-wrap: break-word; word-break: break-word;">The
final /22 ipv4 is enough to serve huge numbers of eyeball
subscribers, if used wisely for supporting services and nat64
pools (or similar technology).</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: monospace; width:
71ch; word-wrap: break-word; word-break: break-word;">And as
more and more services get ipv6 the number of subscribers
served through those pools can be increased even further.</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>/Robin</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On Thu, 2016-09-22 at 18:51 +0200, Tim Armstrong wrote:</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p dir="ltr">Rather than bickering over the last scraps of IPv4,
saving smaller LIRs a few hundred euros, attempting to somehow
screw the older LIRs, or three at the same time. Wouldn't our
time be better spent working out ways to improve end user
adoption of IPv6? </p>
<p dir="ltr">I'd like to propose RIPE set up a fund (summer of
code style) for the implementation of native IPv6 support in
open-source software (such as cloudsta k, etc) and simplifying
end-user adoption. Perhaps we should even offer a free public
IPv6 tunnel service for natural persons similar to the service
currently offered by hurricane electric.</p>
<p dir="ltr">-Tim</p>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 22 Sep 2016 6:13 p.m., "Floris
Bos" <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:bos@je-eigen-domein.nl">bos@je-eigen-domein.nl</a>>
wrote:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote type="cite">On 09/22/2016 01:57 PM, Daniel
Pearson wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
I'm not saying that a discussion is bad, but I'm simply
saying that most of the discussions are being had are
not based on fact.<br>
<br>
To my knowledge RIPE doesn't have a list of members
categorized by assignment size, so this is something
that someone would need to parse the RIPE db for, it's
all public record so it can be done.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Counting all allocated IPv4 each LIR has, and converting
it back to CIDR:<br>
<br>
CIDR Number of LIRs<br>
<br>
<= /24 1<br>
<= /23 4<br>
<= /22 6051<br>
<= /21 1582<br>
<= /20 1638<br>
<= /19 1547<br>
<= /18 1040<br>
<= /17 709<br>
<= /16 386<br>
<= /15 293<br>
<= /14 134<br>
<= /13 110<br>
<= /12 80<br>
<= /11 64<br>
<= /10 25<br>
<= /9 14<br>
<= /8 6<br>
<= /7 2<br>
<br>
IPv6 only 241<br>
<br>
<br>
If we were to take ARIN's fees as example where up to and
including /20 is less expensive than RIPE's current fees,
9276 out of the 13686 LIRs with IPv4 would pay less.<br>
Not just new ones...<br>
<br>
Total income would be similar.<br>
<br>
<br>
Yours sincerely,<br>
<br>
Floris Bos<br>
<br>
<br>
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</blockquote>
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