<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-9"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 14 (filtered medium)"><style></style></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Of course they do not contact us directly and claim something. The point is, when they distribute false information about you and causing harm to you, they do not need to contact you directly.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>As the harmed side, you feel obliged to contact them and persuade them to fix this. Eventually you will be the one who spends time and effort, but they will be the profiting side.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>That why I used the word blackmailing as a metaphor.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I respect the freedom of people to create such databases and I’m not against it. But there is no freedom to distribute content about some others, that cannot be verified to at least some degree, which means totally fabricated.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>If maximind wants to get on some correct data about our subnets, it easy for them, they only need to look at the RIPE database, since our subnets have the geoloc attributes set for months.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Sinan Özţekerci<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Edward Dore [mailto:ripe@freethought-internet.co.uk] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 28, 2014 1:38 PM<br><b>To:</b> Sinan Özţekerci<br><b>Cc:</b> admin@intl-alliance.com; members-discuss@ripe.net<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>You don’t “have to” do anything. They aren’t “forcing" you to correct their data. I certainly can’t see how you can equate it to blackmail - they aren’t trying to extort money from you or threatening you in any way.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>This claim of somehow being blackmailed by a third party who have never even got in touch with you is essentially the same argument as put forward by people who don’t like being listed on spam RBLs.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>People are free to create databases of IP addresses and associated attributes based on their opinion and other people are free to use that database if they wish. There is no blackmail/extortion/defamation happening.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>We use the MaxMind GeoIP database and minFraud service and on the whole find it to be sufficiently accurate for our needs. If the level of accuracy of these services drops such that it starts to causes us problems, then we will stop using these services and MaxMind will have lost a customer, therefore it is in their best interests to keep the data as accurate as possible. Simple free market economics.<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Perhaps in your case MaxMind don’t have much/any data about your IP addresses and so are trying to guess the location based on the only data available to them - the RIPE database?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>It sounds like RIPE are using the MaxMind GeoIP database and API for their RIPEstat service and indeed they clearly state this next to the geographic data on the page. The RIPEstat service is completely separate to the RIPE database and can be used to view details about any IP address from any of the RIRs, not just those administered by RIPE.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Edward Dore <br>Freethought Internet <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On 28 May 2014, at 11:16, Sinan Özţekerci <<a href="mailto:sozsekerci@esertelekom.com">sozsekerci@esertelekom.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I can’t understand why I have to spend time end effort to correct a private company’s database and helping them to earn more money where they don’t mind to harm buissness of other ones with distributing false information about them.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>This comes to me like some kind of blackmailing, harming you in first place and forcing you to help them serve better and make more money.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>In our case , maximind is showing the location of our IP subnets in a “Village” which of the name is the same as our company just by coincidence, and is hundreds of km away from our HQ, in a totally different city.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>So all these algorithms and fancy ways they use to retrieve these “more specific” data is crap for me.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>As a LIR , I only know RIPE, and since RIPE is the Authority, I expect them to rely on their own database which has the information that I have control on, and not to some 3th party moneymakers.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Regards</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Sinan ÖZŢEKERCÝ</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><a href="mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net">members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net</a> [<a href="mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net">mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net</a>]<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></b>Edward Dore<br><b>Sent:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Wednesday, May 28, 2014 12:41 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="mailto:admin@intl-alliance.com">admin@intl-alliance.com</a><br><b>Cc:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net">members-discuss@ripe.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Re: [members-discuss] My Question To All LIR Members</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The RIPE database is not primarily concerned with GeoIP data, it is a registry of who specific IP address blocks are allocated to and how they can be contacted.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>MaxMind may draw some of their GeoIP data from the the RIR databases, but they also get a lot of it from elsewhere, which allows them to be more specific than just the country code contained in the RIPE database.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Additionally, the RIPE database manual states the following for the “country” field in the “inetnum” object:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>"It has not been specified what this country means. It cannot therefore be used in any reliable way to map IP addresses to countries"<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>As a customer of MaxMind, I depend on them providing me with accurate, useful information about the location and use of IP addresses for fraud screening etc. If MaxMind were to draw that information only from the RIPE database, then not only would MaxMind be pointless (as I could just get the information directly from RIPE) but the accuracy would be significantly reduced (country level instead of city level) and it would be easy for people to game the system simply by changing their objects in the RIPE database to contain false information.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>MaxMind do not “make up” their information, they calculate it from multiple sources and this is what MaxMind customers are buying - data derived from multiple sources and processed by MaxMind’s algorithms.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Obviously these algorithms are never going to be 100% accurate, which is why if people believe that the data contained in the MaxMind database is inaccurate then they can submit suggestions for corrections which MaxMind will then evaluate. MixMind are under no obligation to use any corrections submitted and are quite right to reject them if they believe that they are inaccurate or misleading for any reason.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Accuracy of their database is important to MaxMinds’ customers and thus to MaxMind. If their database is largely inaccurate, then it is useless to their customers and MaxMind will lose business as a result. Obviously it is therefore in MaxMind’s best interest to keep their database as accurate and up to date as possible.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>As for the open proxy vs VPN, I can completely understand why MaxMind could detect VPNs as open proxy servers and as a user of their minFraud service I would expect to treat the two in exactly the same way because they are providing an identical function - to obscure the location and details of the end user.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Edward Dore <br>Freethought Internet <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On 28 May 2014, at 10:02,<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="mailto:admin@intl-alliance.com"><span style='color:purple'>admin@intl-alliance.com</span></a><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I depend on Maxmind using data obtained from a central registry. If all<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><br>ip tracing websites created their own databases with information they<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><br>made up, we wouldn't bother with the RIPE database any more because it<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><br>would become obsolete. We depend on ip tracing websites to gather their<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><br>information from authority sites, not the garbage they produce on their<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><br>own. And I'm only interested, as well as my end-users, of seeing ip<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><br>information that I've registered in the appropriate places. Simply<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><br>stating that "we're only interested in end-user locations" rather than<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><br>ip registration data, sits badly in my mind. And it has also caught the<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><br>attention of the RIPE NCC itself, which just sent me the following email<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><br>regarding this situation:<br><br>Dear Jared,<br><br>Thank you for your email.<br><br>We value your concern about correct registration details for internet<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><br>resources.<br><br>However the RIPE NCC has no authority on how private companies compile<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><br>their data and how much they take information from the RIPE database in<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><br>account.<br>Did you contacted MaxMind directly and informed them about the<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><br>mismatching information they provide? Because finally if information are<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><br>incorrect then this is not only damaging companies like yours but also<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><br>the reputation of the providers of this data.<br><br>And I will forward your observation to my colleagues from the<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><br><a href="http://stat.ripe.net/"><span style='color:purple'>stat.ripe.net</span></a><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>team as there for Geolocation we are using data from<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><br>MaxMind.<br><a href="https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo"><span style='color:purple'>https://stat.ripe.net/193.0.20.0#tabId=geo</span></a><br><br>Then my colleagues will check if there could be any conflicting<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><br>information in our own tools.<br><br>--<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><br>Thank you again for bring up this topic.<br><br>Kind regards,<br><br>Marco Schmidt<br>RIPE NCC<br><br><br>On 2014-05-28 09:52, Alfredo Sola wrote:<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>That thought was kind of pointless after they refused to help. I've<br>spent hours on their site manually updating all of their inaccuracies<br>over the past few years. From one month to the next they can screw up<br>entire ranges with their monthly updates. My networks do not run<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><br>proxies<br>period. I run vpn services and remote desktops, but never proxies. And<br>vpn services cannot be classified the same as open proxies as they are<br>totally different.<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><br><span class=apple-tab-span> </span><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>I think your issue is more a business model problem than a registry<br>or IP problem.<br><br><span class=apple-tab-span> </span><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>What you are saying is that you depend on Maxmind providing the<br>location of your VPN servers / remote desktop servers rather than the<br>location of users computers connected to them. Maxmind, on the other<br>hand, is saying that they provide the location of users if they can,<br>or will mark the location as unknown.<br><br><span class=apple-tab-span> </span><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>So your business model depends on Maxmind agreeing to provide to<br>their customers something which is not what they pay to obtain. And<br>they refuse. I personally don't think they can be blamed for that, but<br>that's something between your company and Maxmind. And nothing in this<br>has to do with RIPE.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br>----<br>If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss<br>mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page:<br><a href="https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/"><span style='color:purple'>https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/</span></a><br><br>Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></body></html>