<html><head></head><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>Hi Alexey,</div><div><br></div><div>Historic allocations won't be changed, except if these companies give some of their space back by their own. </div><div>Not seeing any routes in DFZ, doesn't mean it is un-used or free. I know that the Dutch KPN uses large subnets internally in their network for management and such, without routing these subnets into the DFZ. That will also apply to companies like HP and alike. And if the new transfer policy comes into place, it will probably come on the 'market' if they don't need it. </div><div>I spoke with someone from Surfnet a while ago (they also have a /8 and a whole block of 16 bit ASN pre-RIPE) and on they question if they would return space to RIPE, their answer was :</div><div><br></div><div><quote>Why prolong the inevitable, we have been doing v6 for 15 years already. Everyone should do the same ...</end quote></div><div><br></div><div>That reasoning is very true and I do agree with it.</div><div><br></div><div>There is probably much more to be found on free or un-used space within the current allocations, lirs that have merged with others, un-used (but still routed space) you name it, but that whatever policy we are trying to make here, it won't fix it... V4 is almost depleted, get over it, why prolong the inevitable.. </div><div><br></div><div>That is also why a charging scheme based on v4 is short lived and out-dated by the time it comes into action. The first RIPE invoice based on it, will be when the resource pool is already in the final /8. And that pool won't magically grow back above it ... </div><div><br></div><div>I love to be proven wrong but I'm willing to take bets on that .. Which should be taken as a fair warning that you will loose your money ... </div><div><br></div><div>A charging scheme based on budget / nr of members is my prediction where things should go for the above mentioned reasons, why based it on a resource or charge for a resource that is gone ... To have this discussion again in one or two years ? Please spare me ... </div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Erik</div><div><br></div><div><br><br>Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPad</div><div><br>Op 27 jul. 2012 om 01:11 heeft LeaderTelecom Ltd. <<a href="mailto:info@leadertelecom.ru">info@leadertelecom.ru</a>> het volgende geschreven:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">Dear Members,<br>
<br>
Here is some examples why current charging scheme and new draft is not so good for Members and why we have to move to charging scheme based on count of used IPs. <br>
<br>
<strong>Case 1. Inetnum: 15.0.0.0<span style="color:#ff0000;">/8 (16 777 216 IPs ).</span> ASSIGNED PI. Hewlett-Packard Company.</strong><br>
a) Based on current and new charging scheme RIPE will charge for this resource <span style="color:#ff0000;"><strong>only 50 EUR.</strong></span><br>
b) See in remarks: "From 27th June 1998, no origin in Europe.". This space must be return to RIPE by current policy.<br>
<br>
<strong>Case 2. Inetnum: 53.0.0.0</strong><strong><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0); ">/8 (16 777 216 IPs ).</span> </strong><strong>ASSIGNED PI. Daimler AG.</strong><br>
a) Based on current and new charging scheme RIPE will charge for this resource <span style="color:#ff0000;"><strong>only 50 EUR.</strong></span><br>
b) This is not Telecom. Based on report Daimler AG:<br>
<a href="http://sustainability.daimler.com/reports/daimler/annual/2012/nb/English/5520/workforce-development.html" target="_blank" title="http://sustainability.daimler.com/reports/daimler/annual/2012/nb/English/5520/workforce-development.html">http://sustainability.daimler.com/reports/daimler/annual/2012/nb/English/5520/workforce-development.html</a><br>
WorldWide Workforce: 271370 people. Does Daimler AG reely need real IP for each person?<br>
/8 = 16 777 216 IPs. So for each person in company Daimler AG need 16 777 216 / 271 370 = 64 IPs?<br>
<br>
<strong>Case 3. Inetnum: 51.0.0.0</strong><strong><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0); ">/8 (16 777 216 IPs ).</span> </strong><strong>EARLY-REGISTRATION. UK Government Department for Work and Pensions.</strong><br>
a) <span style="color:#ff0000;"><strong>For free (legacy).</strong></span><br>
b) This network doesn't have any routes. <br>
<br>
<strong>Case 4. Inetnum:151.3.0.0 - 151.84.255.255 <span style="color:#ff0000;">( 5 373 952 IPs)</span>. EARLY-REGISTRATION. WIND Telecomunicazioni S.p.A. </strong><br>
a) <span style="color:#ff0000;"><strong>For free (legacy).</strong></span><br>
<br>
<strong>Case 5. Inetnum: 163.62.0.0 - 163.116.255.255<span style="color:#ff0000;"> ( 3 604 480 IPs )</span>. ASSIGNED PI. Electricite de France.</strong><br>
a) Based on current and new charging scheme RIPE will charge for this resource <span style="color:#ff0000;"><strong>only 50 EUR.</strong></span><br>
b) This network doesn't have any routes. <br>
<br>
It is just a small amount of problems which we have right now. We have a lot of free IPs, but we don't use them. /8 for 50 EUR? This is cost of current (and new) charging schemes. How to get free IPs back to RIPE? Just charge some money for each IP. Thats all. If customer don't need IP - he will return back to RIPE and may be we will get 3-5 /8 back to RIPE which we can distribute between members who realy need it.<br>
<br>
<br>
<strong><span style="font-size:18px;">Source Information from RIPE whois. </span></strong><br>
<br>
<br>
Date: 27 July 2012. 01:30<br>
<br>
<div>
inetnum: <span style="color:#ff0000;"><strong>15.0.0.0 - 15.255.255.255</strong></span></div>
<div>
netname: HP-INTERNET</div>
<div>
descr: Hewlett-Packard Company</div>
<div>
descr: European Networks Operation</div>
<div>
country: FR</div>
<div>
admin-c: VG1212</div>
<div>
admin-c: DF5107</div>
<div>
tech-c: VG1212</div>
<div>
tech-c: DF5107</div>
<div>
status: <span style="color:#ff0000;"><strong>ASSIGNED PI</strong></span></div>
<div>
remarks: <span style="color:#ff0000;"><strong>Country is placeholder only. Real country is US.</strong></span></div>
<div>
remarks: Refer to US registries for peering details.</div>
<div>
remarks: For security incidents reporting please contact : <a href="mailto:abuse@hp.com">abuse@hp.com</a></div>
<div>
mnt-by: AS71-MNT</div>
<div>
source: RIPE #Filtered</div>
<div>
</div>
<div>
person: Dominique Fillon</div>
<div>
address: Hewlett Packard Europe</div>
<div>
address: 5, Avenus Raymond Chanas</div>
<div>
address: Eybens</div>
<div>
address: Grenoble Cedex 9</div>
<div>
address: 38053</div>
<div>
address: France</div>
<div>
phone: +33 4 76 14 17 66</div>
<div>
fax-no: +33 4 76 14 69 00</div>
<div>
nic-hdl: DF5107</div>
<div>
mnt-by: AS71-MNT</div>
<div>
mnt-by: AS1889-MNT</div>
<div>
remarks: For security incidents reporting please contact : <a href="mailto:abuse@hp.com">abuse@hp.com</a></div>
<div>
source: RIPE #Filtered</div>
<div>
</div>
<div>
person: Vincent Giles</div>
<div>
address: Hewlett Packard Europe</div>
<div>
address: 5, Avenus Raymond Chanas</div>
<div>
address: Eybens</div>
<div>
address: Grenoble Cedex 9</div>
<div>
address: 38053</div>
<div>
address: France</div>
<div>
phone: +33 4 76 14 64 77</div>
<div>
fax-no: +33 4 76 14 69 00</div>
<div>
nic-hdl: VG1212</div>
<div>
mnt-by: AS71-MNT</div>
<div>
mnt-by: AS1889-MNT</div>
<div>
remarks: For security incidents reporting please contact : <a href="mailto:abuse@hp.com">abuse@hp.com</a></div>
<div>
source: RIPE #Filtered</div>
<div>
</div>
<div>
</div>
<div>
route: 15.0.0.0/8</div>
<div>
descr: HP-INTERNET</div>
<div>
origin: AS71</div>
<div>
remarks: <span style="color:#ff0000;"><strong>From 27th June 1998, <u>no origin in Europe.</u></strong></span></div>
<div>
remarks: Refer to <a href="http://whois.arin.net">whois.arin.net</a> & <a href="http://whois.ra.net">whois.ra.net</a></div>
<div>
remarks: For security incidents reporting please contact : <a href="mailto:abuse@hp.com">abuse@hp.com</a></div>
<div>
mnt-by: AS71-MNT</div>
<div>
source: RIPE #Filtered</div>
<div>
</div>
<div>
route: 15.0.0.0/8</div>
<div>
descr: Hewlett-Packard Company</div>
<div>
origin: AS7430</div>
<div>
mnt-by: AS1889-MNT</div>
<div>
source: RIPE #Filtered</div>
<br>
===================================<br>
<br>
<div>
inetnum: <span style="color:#ff0000;"><strong>53.0.0.0 - 53.255.255.255</strong></span></div>
<div>
netname: DAIMLER-NET1</div>
<div>
descr: <span style="color:#ff0000;"><strong>Daimler AG</strong></span></div>
<div>
country: DE</div>
<div>
admin-c: BS4256-RIPE</div>
<div>
tech-c: BS4256-RIPE</div>
<div>
status: ASSIGNED PI</div>
<div>
mnt-by: DAIMLER-MNT</div>
<div>
source: RIPE #Filtered</div>
<div>
</div>
<div>
person: Bernhard Semmler</div>
<div>
address: Daimler AG</div>
<div>
address: HPC 0517</div>
<div>
address: D-70546 Stuttgart</div>
<div>
address: Germany</div>
<div>
phone: +49 711 17 94591</div>
<div>
fax-no: +49 711 17 79093478</div>
<div>
nic-hdl: BS4256-RIPE</div>
<div>
mnt-by: DAIMLER-MNT</div>
<div>
source: RIPE #Filtered </div>
<div>
</div>
<div>
route: 53.0.0.0/8</div>
<div>
descr: DAIMLER-NET1</div>
<div>
origin: AS31399</div>
<div>
mnt-by: DAIMLER-MNT</div>
<div>
source: RIPE #Filtered</div>
<div>
</div>
<div>
=================================<br>
<br>
inetnum: <span style="color:#ff0000;"><strong>51.0.0.0 - 51.255.255.255</strong></span></div>
<div>
netname: UK-DWP</div>
<div>
descr: UK Government Department for Work and Pensions</div>
<div>
country: GB</div>
<div>
org: ORG-DWP1-RIPE</div>
<div>
admin-c: PW1754-RIPE</div>
<div>
tech-c: PW1754-RIPE</div>
<div>
status: <span style="color:#ff0000;"><strong>EARLY-REGISTRATION</strong></span></div>
<div>
mnt-by: DWP-MNT</div>
<div>
source: RIPE #Filtered</div>
<div>
</div>
<div>
organisation: ORG-DWP1-RIPE</div>
<div>
org-name: UK Government Department for Work and Pensions</div>
<div>
org-type: OTHER</div>
<div>
descr: UK Government Department</div>
<div>
address: 301 Bridgewater Place Birchwood Park Warrington England</div>
<div>
admin-c: PW1754-RIPE</div>
<div>
tech-c: PW1754-RIPE</div>
<div>
mnt-ref: DWP-MNT</div>
<div>
mnt-by: DWP-MNT</div>
<div>
source: RIPE #Filtered</div>
<div>
</div>
<div>
person: Peter Wightman</div>
<div>
address: 301 Bridgewater Place Birchwood Park Warrington England</div>
<div>
org: ORG-DWP1-RIPE</div>
<div>
phone: +44 1925 845368</div>
<div>
nic-hdl: PW1754-RIPE</div>
<div>
mnt-by: DWP-MNT</div>
<div>
source: RIPE #Filtered </div>
<div>
</div>
================================================<br>
<br>
<div>
inetnum: <span style="color:#ff0000;"><strong>151.3.0.0 - 151.84.255.255</strong></span></div>
<div>
netname: IT-WIND-LEGACY</div>
<div>
org: ORG-WTS2-RIPE</div>
<div>
descr: WIND Telecomunicazioni S.p.A</div>
<div>
descr: IUnet</div>
<div>
descr: Via Lorenteggio 257</div>
<div>
descr: Milano, I-20100</div>
<div>
country: IT</div>
<div>
admin-c: IIS1-RIPE</div>
<div>
tech-c: IIS1-RIPE</div>
<div>
status: <span style="color:#ff0000;"><strong>EARLY-REGISTRATION</strong></span></div>
<div>
mnt-by: RIPE-NCC-HM-MNT</div>
<div>
mnt-by: AS1267-MNT</div>
<div>
mnt-lower: AS1267-MNT</div>
<div>
mnt-routes: AS1267-MNT</div>
<div>
source: RIPE #Filtered</div>
<div>
</div>
<div>
organisation: ORG-WTS2-RIPE</div>
<div>
org-name: WIND Telecomunicazioni S.p.A.</div>
<div>
org-type: LIR</div>
<div>
remarks: send mail to <a href="mailto:abuse@libero.it">abuse@libero.it</a> for complaints reguarding spam</div>
<div>
address: WIND Telecomunicazioni S.p.A. Via Cesare Giulio Viola, 48 00148 Rome Italy</div>
<div>
phone: +39 06 8311 6718</div>
<div>
fax-no: +39 02 3011 5572</div>
<div>
admin-c: FP453-RIPE</div>
<div>
admin-c: CL856-RIPE</div>
<div>
mnt-ref: WIND-MNT</div>
<div>
mnt-ref: RIPE-NCC-HM-MNT</div>
<div>
mnt-by: RIPE-NCC-HM-MNT</div>
<div>
source: RIPE #Filtered</div>
<div>
</div>
<div>
person: Infostrada Internet Staff</div>
<div>
address: Infostrada SpA</div>
<div>
address: Via Lorenteggio 257</div>
<div>
address: I-20152 Milano</div>
<div>
address: Italy</div>
<div>
phone: +39 02 30115015</div>
<div>
nic-hdl: IIS1-RIPE</div>
<div>
mnt-by: AS1267-MNT</div>
<div>
source: RIPE #Filtered</div>
<br>
======================================<br>
<br>
<div>
inetnum: <span style="color:#ff0000;"><strong>163.62.0.0 - 163.116.255.255</strong></span></div>
<div>
netname: EDF-NET05</div>
<div>
descr: <strong><span style="color:#ff0000;">Electricite de France</span></strong></div>
<div>
country: FR</div>
<div>
admin-c: EDFC1-RIPE</div>
<div>
tech-c: EDFC2-RIPE</div>
<div>
org: ORG-EdF1-RIPE</div>
<div>
status: ASSIGNED PI</div>
<div>
mnt-by: MNT-EDF</div>
<div>
mnt-routes: MNT-EDF</div>
<div>
mnt-domains: MNT-EDF</div>
<div>
mnt-by: RIPE-NCC-HM-PI-MNT</div>
<div>
mnt-lower: RIPE-NCC-HM-PI-MNT</div>
<div>
source: RIPE #Filtered</div>
<div>
</div>
<div>
organisation: ORG-EdF1-RIPE</div>
<div>
org-name: Electricite de France Service National</div>
<div>
org-type: LIR</div>
<div>
address: Electricite de France Service National R&T / ONR 32 avenue Pablo Picasso 92016 Nanterre France</div>
<div>
phone: +33 1 78 66 84 73</div>
<div>
fax-no: +33 1 78 66 71 02</div>
<div>
mnt-ref: RIPE-NCC-HM-MNT</div>
<div>
mnt-ref: MNT-EDF</div>
<div>
mnt-by: RIPE-NCC-HM-MNT</div>
<div>
admin-c: EDFC1-RIPE</div>
<div>
admin-c: EDFC2-RIPE</div>
<div>
source: RIPE #Filtered</div>
<div>
</div>
<div>
role: EDF LIR Contact1</div>
<div>
address: EDF - DIT/R&T/ONR</div>
<div>
address: 32, avenue Pablo Picasso</div>
<div>
address: 92016 - NANTERRE</div>
<div>
address: France</div>
<div>
admin-c: EDFA-RIPE</div>
<div>
tech-c: EDFT-RIPE</div>
<div>
nic-hdl: EDFC1-RIPE</div>
<div>
remarks: Contacts for the LIR EDF</div>
<div>
mnt-by: MNT-EDF</div>
<div>
source: RIPE #Filtered</div>
<div>
</div>
<div>
role: EDF LIR Contact2</div>
<div>
address: EDF - DIT/R&T/ONR</div>
<div>
address: 32, avenue Pablo Picasso</div>
<div>
address: 92016 - NANTERRE</div>
<div>
address: France</div>
<div>
admin-c: EDFA-RIPE</div>
<div>
tech-c: EDFT-RIPE</div>
<div>
nic-hdl: EDFC2-RIPE</div>
<div>
remarks: Contacts for the LIR EDF</div>
<div>
mnt-by: MNT-EDF</div>
<div>
source: RIPE #Filtered</div>
<br>
<div>
-- <br>
Alexey Ivanov<br>
LeaderTelecom Ltd.</div>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>----</span><br><span>If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss</span><br><span>mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page:</span><br><span><a href="https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view">https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.</span></div></blockquote></body></html>