<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Dear Paolo,<div><br></div><div>I had a BT line in Italy (Now "Albacom" i think, AS8968) and i am not sure what you mean...</div><div>We had a static IP - I also had a phoneline and Internet from WIND (Or Telecom Italia) under another contract which had *no* IP and was NATed (Hell, even multilevel NAT....)</div><div><br></div><div>I am also not sure what you refer to with the IPv6 problems - Just buy Level3, GBLX, Telecom Italia, Cogent or whatever transit - Why do you need to rely on the local telco? (Is there no Last Line Unbundling in Italy?)</div><div>Our ISP in Milano does IPv6 over DSL as well (and over FTTH, and in our case to our colocation).....</div><div><br></div><div><br><div apple-content-edited="true">
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div><div>--</div><div>William Weber | RIPE: WW | LIR: at.edisgmbh</div><div><a href="mailto:william@edisglobal.com">william@edisglobal.com</a> | <a href="mailto:william@edis.at">william@edis.at</a> | <a href="http://edis.at">http://edis.at</a> | <a href="http://as57169.net">http://as57169.net</a></div><div>EDIS GmbH (AS57169) NOC</div><div>Graz, Austria</div></div></div></div></span></span>
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<br><div><div>Am 27.07.2012 um 12:05 schrieb Paolo Di Francesco:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div>Hi William<br><br><br><blockquote type="cite">WIND uses by far *more* than 5mil IPs - They are the second largest<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">access provider in Italy, in fact they are so short already that they<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">run NAT now...<br></blockquote><br>I guess it's not the only net allocated to wind, but just to make things <br>clear regarding the IPv4-IPv6 situation in Italy:<br><br>1) at the current date each provider MUST allocate one public IPv4 for <br>each contract (not customer, contract, which means if you have one <br>company with 50 employees at minimum one public IPv4 must be allocated)<br>2) NAT (=multiple customers beyond one public IP) with some form of <br>"connection tracking" has been proposed, but yet not accepted by the <br>Italian government<br>3) the big telco told us that dual stack cannot be done and they will <br>never implement it so far because:<br>3.a) there is no mobile device well supporting IPv6<br>3.b) IPv6 traffic is insignificant, the traffic is only IPv4 (well if <br>they do not provider IPv6 to customers I see some barriers to have IPv6 <br>traffic...)<br>3.c) IPv6 WILL NOT HAPPEN for a looooong time, and they will NOT provide <br>dual stack<br>3.d) xDSL modems do not support IPv6 (maybe they should change modem <br>brand, I don't know)<br>3.e) operating systems are not supporting IPv6<br><br>We asked them to give dual stack, but the message that I have heard is: <br>no only IPv4 and NAT is the solution for the future, then maybe in some <br>years (5? 10? 20??) we will reconsider IPv6<br><br>Therefore I see small and medium ISP running dual stack to be "future <br>ready" while large operators in Italy will run IPv4 and NAT for a long, <br>long time.<br><br>Now if RIPE will consider a dual fee for IPv4 and IPv6 I guess that it <br>will not help small LIRs to implement IPv6 and that will be a huge <br>damage for the whole community.<br><br>It will be funny that small ISP are implementing IPv6 and maybe paying <br>more than big telcos.<br><br>Regarding the IPv4-IPv6 policy, my personal opinion is that it's a <br>commercial war: the longer IPv6 dual stack or transition will take, the <br>better will be to keep the market closed and the current positions <br>untouched.<br><br>Should we consider an extra fee if you do NOT use IPv6 for customers????<br><br>But as I said, we should split the two discussions: one regarding IPv4 <br>and IPv6 allocation (and mistakes of the past, when nobody knew what the <br>hell was an IP) and another one regarding RIPE fees. Not saying those <br>two things are not related just saying that IPv4 re-allocation policy <br>for huge systems should be taken into serious consideration<br><br>As a last note: if Wind and other operators are using NAT and they are <br>happy with that (instead of implementing dual stack and migration <br>mechanisms) then they DO NOT NEED IPv4, and then then can give it back <br>to RIPE. If with one IPv4 you can put 1,000-10,000 customers, hey we are <br>60 millions in Italy we need few public IPv4 for big LIRS, right?<br><br>Best regards<br><br><br>-- <br><br><br>Ing. Paolo Di Francesco<br><br>Level7 s.r.l. unipersonale<br><br>Sede operativa: Largo Montalto, 5 - 90144 Palermo<br><br>C.F. e P.IVA 05940050825<br>Fax : +39-091-8772072<br>assistenza: (+39) 091-8776432<br>web: <a href="http://www.level7.it">http://www.level7.it</a><br><br><br><br><br>----<br>If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss<br>mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page:<br><a href="https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view">https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view</a><br><br>Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.<br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>