<html> <head> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=Windows-1252"> </head> <body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "> Most organisations we're members of (ITSPA, ISPA, etc) work on a fee based on company turnover. <div><br> </div> <div>That way, if you're a larger entity you pay more, and a smaller entity you pay less.</div> <div><br> </div> <div>Whether this is fair or not I don't know, but it seems to work.</div> <div><br> </div> <div>It may promote more and more small LIRs if the fees are small, and the workload may increase �. but do we want this, or do we want a pricing mechanism which will force the smaller companies who may have become an LIR to instead buy the services from a larger company who is an LIR with internal resources to deal with the majority of issues themselves ?</div> <div><br> </div> <div>I always thought it odd that RIPE was promoting almost anyone becoming an LIR - yes it increases their turnover and "profits" whilst also stealing the potential business from companies like ourselves who effectively became an LIR to provide services to these smaller businesses�.</div> <div><br> </div> <div>At the end of the day, we either all pay the same fee regardless of size (�2000 per annum?) or we have a sliding scale based on revenues (�500 for up to �1m turnover, �1,000 for turnover up to �2.5m and so on �� or we tax everyone based on the number of resources they have, so the guys with 10 x /19's pay more than those with 1 x /21 - but then that changes the taxable status of RIPE as a whole)</div> <div><br> </div> <div>Which takes me back to my first point � most membership organisations simply charge a sliding scale based on turnover</div> <div><br> </div> <div>We all have the option to send 2 members of staff off on courses telling us how to spell DNS or how to fill in a web form / drive a web page. If we choose to use them then great, and we get some networking benefits from meeting people � and those who don't make use of the courses either don't need to / want to or can't afford to have the staff out of the office for the time (usually because they're too small to have 50% of their staff out for 2 days)</div> <div><br> </div> <div>just my �2 :)</div> <div><br> </div> <div>J</div> <div><br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div><br> <div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "> <div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "> <div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "> <div>-- </div> <div>Jon Morby</div> <div>FidoNet - the internet made simple!</div> <div>10 - 16 Tiller Road, London, E14 8PX</div> <div>tel: 0845 004 3050 / fax: 0845 004 3051</div> </div> </span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> </div> </span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> </span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> </div> <br> <div> <div>On 14 Jul 2012, at 15:02, Andrea Cocito <<a href="mailto:andrea.cocito@ifom.eu">andrea.cocito@ifom.eu</a>></div> <div> wrote:</div> <br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> <blockquote type="cite">Sorry for quoting in line and multiple snips...<br> <br> On Jul 14, 2012, at 3:29 PM, Lu Heng wrote:<br> <blockquote type="cite">Argument 1: fees should related to Ripe NCC workload rather than<br> address distribution.(in the sense that Ripe NCC is in fact NOT RIPE,<br> it is just a secretary service offered to people who need help from<br> the community, the more help you have, the more you pay).<br> </blockquote> <br> Besides the fact that I disagree on the workload model as a principle, <br> I think that the argument is biased in any case and I give an example: <br> our LIR exists since 2003, until now we paid about 16500 euros of <br> fees. I count 9 "tickets" opened on our side.<br> <br> What is the case among the following in your opinion ? :<br> 1 - The average processing cost of one ticket at RIPE is about 2000 <br> euros.<br> 2 - We are an unfortunate case<br> 3 - The system does NOT reflect the workload created by LIRs<br> <br> I vote #3 and I suspect the situation is similar for most "median" LIRs.<br> <br> <snip><br> <blockquote type="cite">So most small LIR(2048 address) will pay ...74 Euro/year. and if you<br> are media LIR(with /16), you will pay... 2405 Euro/year.<br> <br> And if you are large LIR(people with /8), then you will pay<br> 615723.8272Euro/year(for people agree on argument two, companies in<br> real world with over /8, of course should be very well above millions<br> income level, so it shouldn't be a problem for them).<br> </blockquote> <br> <br> This would make a lot of sense in my opinion, even though I disagree <br> with the confusion between a "median" LIR and a "a LIR with a number <br> of allocated IPv4 addresses corresponding to the mean (which is about <br> 50k)". As the distribution is Paretian you can bet that the large <br> majority of LIRs have far less than the "average" number of IP <br> addresses.<br> <br> Does exist somewhere a table reporting for each RIPE member the <br> allocated resources (IPv4, IPv6, ASn, Allocations, Assignments, <br> Routes, etc) ?<br> <br> <blockquote type="cite">However, please note, if a charging model based on IP address number<br> is being done, then the total Ripe expenditure might increase due tax<br> changes. Let's say the premiums are 50% additional cost. For small<br> LIRs, they will pay 130Euro a year, for media, it will be 3700 euro a<br> year, and for real large ones, it will be around 1 millions euro a<br> year.<br> </blockquote> <br> This would still make sense, even though I am convinced that project a <br> tax of 50% of the raw operating income is a bit exaggerated. Make it <br> 50% of the EBIT (which should be close to zero in any case).<br> <br> Should even the numbers you expose be all correct (and as said I have <br> some objection, but I might be wrong) instead of speaking of <br> "small"/"media"/"large" out it in this way: Who holds less than about <br> 20K-30K allocated IPs wouls pay less, who holds more would pay more, <br> for who is in that range it would not change much. I think that the <br> majority of LIRs would agree.<br> <br> Last word... all the above is just IMHO.<br> <br> You are completely right stating that when we do not show up at the <br> meetings and we do not participate we are in fault by definition.<br> <br> Regards,<br> <br> A.<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> ----<br> If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss<br> mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page:<br> <a href="https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view">https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/view</a><br> <br> Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.<br> </blockquote> </div> <br> </div> </body> </html>