[members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Executive Board Meeting to Discuss Charging Scheme Input from Members

Hi Andreas,

My mistake, it doesn’t get voted on directly.

My point still stands though:

The right way to reduce the fees is to adjust the budget and the right way to adjust the budget is to adjust the Activity Plan. The board often specitically asks for input about this and there’s even an entire ncc-services working group to discuss such things.

What’s happening here is something else though: Some loud folks are demanding a particular charging scheme while not having any concrete proposals about how to reduce expenses. This will just leave the RIPE NCC with a budget deficit and it is the board’s legal duty to resist such efforts.

It feels similar to a five year old staming his foot and demanding an ice cream.

Want to reduce membership fees?

Work on an activity plan that requires a reduced budget.

Anything else is silly.

And as Ondrej Filip writes, the board is aware of the concerns and has plans to address these. The RIPE NCC is not a neighbourhood football club though, it’s an RIR with massive responsibilities, so these things take a bit of time.

Cheers,

Alex Le Heux
Network Architect
Tucows Inc / Ting Fiber
aleheux at tucowsinc.com



> On 7 May 2024, at 17:14, Andreas Grabmüller | QuarIt GmbH <a.grabmueller at quarit.de> wrote:
> 
> Hi Alex,
> 
> honest question, do you have a link to the vote where we voted for that Activity Plan? I was of the opinion that the Executive Board decides on that by themselves (after "discussion"), was I wrong about that? I also can't find that on the agenda of any GM in 2022 or 2023.
> 
> Best regards,
> Andreas
> 
> 
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net> Im Auftrag von Alex Le Heux
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. Mai 2024 16:52
> An: Members-Discuss RIPE <members-discuss at ripe.net>
> Betreff: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM] Executive Board Meeting to Discuss Charging Scheme Input from Members
> 
> Does the Activity Plan that the membership accepted reflect this?
> 
> The Activity Plan comes first, that leads to a budget and the Charging Scheme then funds that budget.
> 
> Not the other way around.
> 
> Attacking the Charging Scheme instead of working on the Activity Plan is just lazy.
> 
> Alex Le Heux
> Network Architect
> Tucows Inc / Ting Fiber
> aleheux at tucowsinc.com
> 
> 
> 
>> On 7 May 2024, at 16:39, Daniel Pearson <daniel at privatesystems.net> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Alex,
>> 
>> If only the membership had been calling for RIPE to reduce it's expenditures and budget for the last two years perhaps the board would have had time to implement such cost cutting measures which wouldn't require a new charging scheme to begin with?
>> 
>> Daniel~
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 5/7/24 9:35 AM, Alex Le Heux wrote:
>>> Allow me to rephrase your short but nonsensical email:
>>> 
>>> I ignore the fact that there is an Activity Plan, voted on by the membership, but insist that we should have a charging scheme that doesn’t actually fund the activities in that plan, leaving the organization with a large deficit.
>>> 
>>> Alex Le Heux
>>> Network Architect
>>> Tucows Inc / Ting Fiber
>>> aleheux at tucowsinc.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 7 May 2024, at 16:01, Daniel Pearson <daniel at privatesystems.net> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Please allow me to summarize this long email.
>>>> 
>>>> "We hear you members, but we disagree, so we are still going to do what we want to do".
>>>> 
>>>> Since they will not listen to the proposal voted upon, I move that we as a membership recall all standing board members and hold new elections for all seats. It is clear that the board is NOT listening to it's members.
>>>> 
>>>> We can certainty do that with a proposal can we not Ondřej?
>>>> 
>>>> Daniel~
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 5/7/24 8:54 AM, Ondřej Filip wrote:
>>>>> Dear members,
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 6 May, 2024, the Executive Board held a meeting to discuss the input we received from members regarding the Board proposal for the RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025. We will publish the minutes as soon as possible, but I want to first give you a summary of the discussions and the outcomes from the meeting.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Since we started engaging with the membership on the charging scheme this year, we have received over 400 emails on the topic. For the first time, we also have a member proposal for a GM agenda topic that has received the required number of expressions of support to be added to the GM agenda. Therefore, we felt it was important for the Board to have this extra meeting, review the various points that were brought forward, and consider the next steps in this process. There were many important points to discuss at this meeting, and although the outcome might not please everyone, the Board was fully aligned on how it should move forward.
>>>>> 
>>>>> First, we considered again what we had decided upon at the Board meeting in March. The Board consciously did not put forward a proposal to keep the charging scheme as it is because we don’t believe that it would be good governance to make a proposal that leaves us with a large deficit, and good governance is what is expected from us by the members who elect us.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Furthermore, some of the suggestions from members would change the funding model in a way that would put the organisation at risk, and while the Board represents the members, it also has legal and fiduciary responsibilities towards the organisation. It is clear that one of the main responsibilities of the Board is to propose a charging scheme that will properly fund the association, and the charging scheme options we put forward will do that for 2025 and 2026. So we will put forward the three options as proposed on 24 April 2024 for members to vote on at the GM[1].
>>>>> 
>>>>> There were many proposals to provide that funding in alternative ways. However, we believe that this is not the right time to make fundamental changes to the charging model. We are about to embark on a full review of the organisation and its structures, and that will take some time. For us to implement that review and any resulting actions, we need stable funding. All three of the proposed options offer us this. We also note that the redistribution mechanism allows us to return any surplus made to the membership in the following year should members vote to do so. The Board and the Managing Director will also continue to work to improve efficiency and identify areas for cost savings.
>>>>> 
>>>>> We did consider moving this vote to later in the year, but this would negatively impact our planning for 2025, and it would also distract from the very important discussions we need to have with members during the Activity Plan and Budget process this Autumn. During that discussion, we do expect that the members who are convinced that the RIPE NCC needs to reduce its budget will tell us which services need to be reduced or cut in order to accommodate such a reduction.
>>>>> 
>>>>> At our meeting, the Board also discussed the structural review that will take place. This will begin at the RIPE 88 Meeting in two weeks with a BoF on how to build a stable future for the RIPE NCC. We expect that there will be a productive discussion on many issues that need to be resolved so that the RIPE NCC can move forward stably and with a funding model that has the support of its membership. We will keep the membership updated on the outcomes of those discussions and how the members can contribute to the work that will surely emerge from them.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Regarding the membership proposal[2], we acknowledge that the threshold was met to add the GM agenda topic “Keep current billing scheme for the next year”. We will add this as a topic to the agenda as required by the Articles of Association. However, this will not be added as a proposed resolution for members to vote on. Articles 15.4, 15.5 and 15.6 of the RIPE NCC Articles of Association do not allow members to propose a Charging Scheme, as reaffirmed by the external law firm that gives us expert advice on Dutch corporate law.
>>>>> 
>>>>> This legal framework ensures that a Charging Scheme may only be proposed by those who were elected to serve on the Executive Board, who have better insight into the financials and the operations of the organisation, and who have a duty of care for the well-being of the organisation and are liable in case of mismanagement. Parties without such insight, responsibility and liability may not put forward charging schemes for voting that - although appealing for individual members - may be inappropriate for the sustainability of the organisation.
>>>>> 
>>>>> To summarise, the Board recognises the member sentiment and we are committed to addressing it for the long term. However, we must do what we believe is best for the stability of the organisation and its membership, even if it is not an easy or popular thing to do. This is what is required of us when we legally commit to be Board members, and we will faithfully execute on our commitments in this regard.
>>>>> 
>>>>> We listen to your feedback and ideas, and on behalf of the Board I thank you for engaging in these important discussions and look forward to seeing them continue as we work towards a sustainable outcome for the RIPE NCC.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The RIPE NCC Executive Board
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ondřej Filip, Chair
>>>>> Raymond Jetten, Treasurer
>>>>> Piotr Strzyżewski, Secretary
>>>>> Maria Häll, Member
>>>>> Remco van Mook, Member
>>>>> Job Snijders, Member
>>>>> Harald A. Summa, Member
>>>>> 
>>>>> [1] https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.google.com/url?q%253Dhttps://www.ripe.net/membership/meetings/gm/meetings/may-2024/documentation-and-archives/supporting-documents/%2526source%253Dgmail-imap%2526ust%253D1715695355000000%2526usg%253DAOvVaw1hDik47Y5sAM6hgJxdL-3L%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1715697644000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw3n17jRAqJ54IWom04czWxq&source=gmail-imap&ust=1715699723000000&usg=AOvVaw2eRClHUdsQ7SKipuVP3LXG
>>>>> 
>>>>> [2] https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.google.com/url?q%253Dhttps://www.ripe.net/participate/meetings/gm/member-proposals/%2526source%253Dgmail-imap%2526ust%253D1715695355000000%2526usg%253DAOvVaw2c5i3vseq8g98vFWwjZWwN%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1715697644000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw3umoJWrBEZYF9r0CNNDP1d&source=gmail-imap&ust=1715699723000000&usg=AOvVaw3lQvj10IeAMLVa-8U9VAvo
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> members-discuss mailing list
>>>> members-discuss at ripe.net
>>>> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.google.com/url?q%253Dhttps://mailman.ripe.net/%2526source%253Dgmail-imap%2526ust%253D1715695355000000%2526usg%253DAOvVaw2ygAsTFfF-UcRSLE6Hvbxa%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1715697644000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw16DLKbpTsPi_56l0c3FtIy&source=gmail-imap&ust=1715699723000000&usg=AOvVaw15w6XP9xVXN1zlgnGQFmpY
>>>> Unsubscribe: https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.google.com/url?q%253Dhttps://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aleheux%25252540ting.com%2526source%253Dgmail-imap%2526ust%253D1715695355000000%2526usg%253DAOvVaw067xu9sj889hjrbFPIJNGG%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1715697644000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw2bcydIEY5At7kibHcx5HJp&source=gmail-imap&ust=1715699723000000&usg=AOvVaw0UxR4-NeKyJelTUCNA6wY7
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> members-discuss mailing list
>>> members-discuss at ripe.net
>>> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://mailman.ripe.net/%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1715697644000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw38vHZAjr17I0Cwm3n6O7zO&source=gmail-imap&ust=1715699723000000&usg=AOvVaw1kqOxHX9iycedcBXx-km9e
>>> Unsubscribe: https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/daniel%252540privatesystems.net%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1715697644000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1E7HxyvdAIlVNrpK586yy-&source=gmail-imap&ust=1715699723000000&usg=AOvVaw0BStCVzfgMQXaxskyKGyez
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> members-discuss mailing list
>> members-discuss at ripe.net
>> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://mailman.ripe.net/%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1715697644000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw38vHZAjr17I0Cwm3n6O7zO&source=gmail-imap&ust=1715699723000000&usg=AOvVaw1kqOxHX9iycedcBXx-km9e
>> Unsubscribe: https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aleheux%252540ting.com%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1715697644000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw3lfRV1VhxWLoSs9tCVrFQR&source=gmail-imap&ust=1715699723000000&usg=AOvVaw03jdD8KfYZIhJRGJ-8fahx
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> members-discuss mailing list
> members-discuss at ripe.net
> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://mailman.ripe.net/&source=gmail-imap&ust=1715699723000000&usg=AOvVaw1I723yuzCLJMq4Tp-w5XIw
> Unsubscribe: https://www.google.com/url?q=https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/a.grabmueller%2540quarit.de&source=gmail-imap&ust=1715699723000000&usg=AOvVaw2eRN_daNeB1qCSV1D2Xdt7
> _______________________________________________
> members-discuss mailing list
> members-discuss at ripe.net
> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://mailman.ripe.net/&source=gmail-imap&ust=1715699723000000&usg=AOvVaw1I723yuzCLJMq4Tp-w5XIw
> Unsubscribe: https://www.google.com/url?q=https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/aleheux%2540ting.com&source=gmail-imap&ust=1715699723000000&usg=AOvVaw0M0fdaSPhOekJ3g7NyQJ-v