[members-discuss] Charging scheme 2025 proposal (logarithmic)

Because IPv4 is runout - guess RIPE must prevent future migration of 
resources out of RIPE region, or at least add some penalty fee - like 
its currently in AFRINIC.

On 16.04.2024 14:40, Petru Bunea wrote:
> No, actually RIPE is a hybrid between transalators, lawyers / legal, 
> technical, accounting, event and PR, running critical infra etc.
> And yes, what now can be done with 40mil used to be done with 25 mil in 
> 2019. Everything got more expensive, get used to it.
> 
> Perhaps RIPE team can adjust here and there, but I honestly don’t see 
> the budget to be able to drop more than 20%. So the question is where do 
> we take those 20% from, because if we raise the prices high enough, IPv4 
> allocation would migrate to other RIRs, which in turn will mean more 
> work and on the long run - less income, and after that of course - raise 
> taxes again.
> 
> Thanks
> 
>> On 16 Apr 2024, at 17:33, Daniel Pearson <daniel at privatesystems.net 
>> <mailto:daniel at privatesystems.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Everybody is still fighting about the wrong question.
>>
>> The question everyone should be arguing about is why it costs 40 
>> million a year to run an internet registry for 20,000~ members.
>>
>> Sure, the bulk of the expense is due to navigating the legal landscape 
>> of multiple member nations, but you can't tell me that's 20-30 million 
>> a year in legal fee's.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 4/16/24 9:31 AM, Petru Bunea wrote:
>>> Where have I said it should be 1 EUR across the board?
>>>
>>> It doesn’t have to be 1 EUR, but it also doesn’t have to be 333 the 
>>> difference. It can be progressively cheaper, but not at such a large 
>>> difference.
>>>
>>> Also, FYI, UK Gov or any Gov, could always put back IPv4 if they find 
>>> it to be too expensive. Just like they force people and companies to 
>>> put back on the market real estate that have a very high yearly tax. 
>>> How would that work out for a change? Call this a tax hike on public 
>>> property, like IP addresses. Maybe they would in fact like it, since 
>>> it’s their way of doing business.
>>>
>>> Otherwise, with this model, we will just move the burden from the big 
>>> ISP/companies/resource holders to the smaller ones.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>>> On 16 Apr 2024, at 17:25, Daniel Pearson <daniel at privatesystems.net> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to see you tell the UK Government that they are going to 
>>>> pay 1 Euro per IP for a /8
>>>>
>>>> Let me know how that conversation goes :)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 4/16/24 9:20 AM, Petru Bunea wrote:
>>>>> This is NOT a good example. In this example we see how a /22 
>>>>> allocation pays 1094 EUR per year, which is close to 1 EUR / 1 IP / 
>>>>> Year, and a /8 allocation pays 48.000 EUR, which is 0.003 EURO / 1 
>>>>> IP / Year, which is 333 times less expensive. So tell me again how 
>>>>> this is a good example.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 16 Apr 2024, at 17:07, Firma KOMPEX <gabi at kompex.pl> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> very good example Sebastian
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Others are doing it and Europe should too
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We should be pioneers and we are in the Middle Ages.
>>>>>> We are chipping away at such obvious issues from others.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The fixed fee for the LIR Account + the resource fee can stay
>>>>>> they need to be calculated
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But necessarily, as you pointed out, IP usage should be accounted for
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pozdrawiam
>>>>>> Gabriel Sulka
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Firma Handlowo - Usługowa KOMPEX
>>>>>> 34-400 Nowy Targ ul. Szaflarska 62A
>>>>>> tel(18) 264-60-55 pn-pt 09:30 - 17:00 sb. 09:30 - 13:00
>>>>>> www.kompex.pl 
>>>>>> <http://www.kompex.pl/>;bok at kompex.pl;kompex at nowytarg.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net> On Behalf Of
>>>>>> Sebastien Brossier
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2024 3:51 PM
>>>>>> To:members-discuss at ripe.net
>>>>>> Subject: [members-discuss] Charging scheme 2025 proposal (logarithmic)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I propose to add the following model to the charging scheme 2025 
>>>>>> voting
>>>>>> options.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *1 - Introduction:*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This charging scheme is heavily inspired by APNIC. If you are not
>>>>>> familiar with this, you can see an example here:
>>>>>> https://www.apnic.net/get-ip/apnic-membership/how-much-does-it-cost/member-f
>>>>>> ees-calculator/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The main idea is that each LIR pays according to its resources, 
>>>>>> but not
>>>>>> linearly. You don't pay twice as much because you have twice as much
>>>>>> resources.
>>>>>> The resulting fees are similar to what the other RIRs are 
>>>>>> charging, with
>>>>>> infinite granularity (no categories).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It can be easily tweaked to reach any desired budget, and will remain
>>>>>> viable when IPv4 has disappeared.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have made IPv6 less punitive compared to APNIC, because RIPE has
>>>>>> larger initial allocations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Independent resources fees, sign-up fee, lack of ASN fee, remain as
>>>>>> before in this proposal. I believe it is better to have a separate
>>>>>> debate on these subjects at a later time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The goal of this charging scheme is to lower the cost for members 
>>>>>> with a
>>>>>> very low amount of resources, in order to attract newcomers and retain
>>>>>> existing members. This way the RIPE NCC membership will remain 
>>>>>> numerous
>>>>>> and diverse.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *2 - Charging scheme:*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (Warning: math incoming !)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IPv4_count = number of IPv4 addresses allocated
>>>>>>              (excluding independent assignments and legacy)
>>>>>> IPv6_count = number of IPv6 /56 subnets allocated
>>>>>>              (excluding independent assignments)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Base_Fee = 638 EUR
>>>>>> Bit_Factor = 1.31
>>>>>> Minimum_Fee = 500 EUR
>>>>>> Offset_IPv4 = 8
>>>>>> Offset_IPv6 = 24
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IPv4_Fee = Base_Fee * Bit_Factor^(log2(IPv4_count) - Offset_IPv4)
>>>>>> IPv6_Fee = Base_Fee * Bit_Factor^(log2(IPv6_count) - Offset_IPv6)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fee = max(IPv4_Fee, IPv6_Fee, Minimum_Fee)
>>>>>>         + 50 EUR per independent resource (excluding ASN)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My simulation, based on public data (2024-03-28), results in an 
>>>>>> average
>>>>>> fee of 1900 EUR per LIR (+ 50 EUR per independent resource), so it
>>>>>> should provide the same budget as the other options.
>>>>>> If RIPE NCC find different results with their simulation, they can
>>>>>> adjust Base_Fee.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *3 - Examples:*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 50 EUR per independent resource should be added to all these fees.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No allocations: 500 EUR
>>>>>> IPv4 /24 and/or IPv6 /32: 638 EUR
>>>>>> IPv4 /23 and/or IPv6 /31: 835 EUR
>>>>>> IPv4 /22 and/or IPv6 /30:1094 EUR
>>>>>> IPv4 /21 and/or IPv6 /29:1434 EUR
>>>>>> IPv4 /20 and/or IPv6 /28:1878 EUR
>>>>>> IPv4 /19 and/or IPv6 /27:2461 EUR
>>>>>> IPv4 /18 and/or IPv6 /26:3224 EUR
>>>>>> IPv4 /17 and/or IPv6 /25:4223 EUR
>>>>>> IPv4 /16 and/or IPv6 /24:5533 EUR
>>>>>> IPv4 /15 and/or IPv6 /23:7248 EUR
>>>>>> IPv4 /14 and/or IPv6 /22:9495 EUR
>>>>>> IPv4 /13 and/or IPv6 /21:12439 EUR
>>>>>> IPv4 /12 and/or IPv6 /20:16295 EUR
>>>>>> IPv4 /11 and/or IPv6 /19:21347 EUR
>>>>>> IPv4 /10 and/or IPv6 /18:27965 EUR
>>>>>> IPv4 /9 and/or IPv6 /17:36634 EUR
>>>>>> IPv4 /8 and/or IPv6 /16:47991 EUR
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Largest LIR is just below 60 kEUR.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are no categories, so your fee can be somewhere between 
>>>>>> these numbers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you think the fees are too high, I invite you to read the fee
>>>>>> schedule of the other RIRs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you if you've read this far.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>> Sebastien Brossier
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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